Trump's remarks | Imamother

Amarante

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 11:49 am

sushilover wrote:

It can be taken down by voting for a mayor or city council who would promise to take it down. I would not lawlessly pull it down and then call myself an "anti" fascist.

The protest was against the lawful removal of the statues by Charlottesville.

There are similar rallies and protests planned for cities which have governments taking them down.

There has only been one instance where protestors removed statues versus the many many protests against the lawful removal.

Baltimore removed all statues last night in order to avoid what happened.

petiteruchy

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 11:50 am

You can be uncomfortable with the extreme left, even with BLM. However, I'm going to strongly suspect you're at best a neolibral who's bought the idea of "compromise" when what BLM is protesting is the fact the generations of black and brown bodies have been bought and sold, trampled on, disrespected and silenced for wanting to live quiet normal lives. At worst I'm going to assume you harbour racist or discriminatory beliefs about non-white bodies. As Jewish people, I appreciate that anti-semitism in the left may have turned you off of some of those movements. I really don't think that the Israeli-Arab situation is as simple as good and evil. I also think there have been people in the BLM movement that have urged people to take a more nuanced approach to the Palestine situation. That being said - They are at their core trying to protect black and brown bodies. There is no "two sides" to this. Black and brown bodies do experience racism, discrimination and violence for existing. That there are issues of anti-semitism within their ranks is problematic but they are NOT A TERRORIST GROUP. This is not debatable.

I urge you to take seriously the real disruption and silencing that these groups have faced. I urge you to take seriously the possibility that the white-adjacent jewish community have been co-opted by the right as a "desirable" minority and that the white-adjacent jewish community benefits from the exploitation of black and brown bodies.

That anti-fascism is being used as an insult or as a derogatory title is just astounding to me. I don't care who you are, being ANTI- fascism is not a bad thing.

33055

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 11:51 am

Amarante wrote:

Why is it then that the ONLY people who are rallying to preserve these symbols of white supremacy are Nazis, white supremacists, members of the Klan and other fringe haters.

I don't even know how to discuss something with a person who is so locked into a particular political view of venerating the right wing that anything that done in the name of the "right" which demonizes the left is okay.

Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. How do you think the Nazi movement started in Weimar Germany. With Aryan (I.e. white) young men who felt economically disaffected. The same cesspool from which the altright is recruiting its army of hate.

I wouldn't protest or fight in the street to preserve the symbols of anything in history.

I agree with you about learning from history. You can't learn from white washed history.

But why am I not a decent person person because I believe in preservation?

FTR, you don't hear when I denounce the alt-right. I really shouldn't even have to do that because it is shook patently obvious Nazis are bad. You only hear when I say that I partially agree with DT. You also hear when I denounce the left.

Amarante

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 11:54 am

sushilover wrote:

Absolutely!!!!!

Luckily, I'm seeing plenty of people on the right condemn Trump's remarks, condemn white nationalists and the alt right, and ALSO condemn antifa.
I wish I saw the same on the left. Instead, from what I have seen, anyone condemning antifa gets attacked for 'victim blaming' or gets attacked as white nationalist apologists.

What the heck is the antifa. I don't know what it is and I'm in the left of almost everyone on this forum.

What am I supposed to be condemning them for? Marching against white supremacists and nazis😱

I am glad the one news outlet is not using the self branding of the white supremacists and will stop referring to the altright but take the cloak of euphemism away and refer to them as neo nazis and white supremists and white nationalists.

If you want to provide me with a litany of the sins of this group called altifa I have never heard of with similar moral equivalences, please do so. But I am shocked there are any defenders of people who came out against neo nazis and white supremacists.

MagentaYenta

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 11:55 am

sushilover wrote:

Absolutely!!!!!

Luckily, I'm seeing plenty of people on the right condemn Trump's remarks, condemn white nationalists and white supremacy, and ALSO condemn antifa.
I wish I saw the same on the left. Instead, from what I have seen, anyone condemning antifa gets attacked for 'victim blaming' or gets attacked as white nationalist apologists.

Actually there has been plenty of condemnation of antifas and the black block, on web sites like The Democratic Underground, Occupy.com and other left wing sites. Simply because you don't read those sites and they don't get covered by the talking heads on tv doesn't mean that those opinions don't exist.

Frankly I'll go to my grave being antifascist, it's not a dirty word, nor is it despicable to stand up to those who support the values of Hitler and Mussolini.

petiteruchy

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 11:57 am

Reply to Squishy:

There is no middle ground to this though. These people hated and hate jews as much as they hated and hate black people, non-white immigrants, indigenous peoples, anyone who wanted them to loosen their grip on the strangle-hold of white power.

The reason we "hear" you only when you denounce the "left" is because essentially what you are saying is that a struggle for emancipation, a struggle for true equality, is not a valid struggle.

Last edited by petiteruchy on Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:20 pm; edited 2 times in total

Amarante

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:00 pm

Squishy wrote:

The plaque on the tree commentating the planting was put up in 1912 I believe. Certainly, it was put up then or the next decade, but it commemorates events in the 1840s. See, I know a little bit about history which is why I hate erasing it. I hate erasing even bad events.

I certainly don't agree with everything DT says, but he is saying things I agree with. It is the left saying that if I don't agree 100%, I am not decent that troubles me. The left is bullying me.

When Princeton wanted to change the names on the Wilson Building because the left had a sit- in for 32 hours because he believed in segregation. They almost won. The President and winner of the Nobel Peace prize was almost erased also. He was never in active rebellion against the US.

Frankly, the place in history of General Lee should be told as factually as possible including ugly statutes.

FWIW, 1912 was a time when the Klan was strong all over and marched in New York City. Their vitriol was aimed at all the foreigners like Jews and Irish who were invading the country. Sound familiar. Just change the nation of origin.

So we should have statues commemorating the worst in people. How does that teach history?

What exactly are you protecting and why. I think you have a knee jerk reaction to anything that is not going right wing.

thse serve no cautionary purpose. It's not as if they are being protected so that people think never again. They are being protected by those who call them part of their heritage. Okay, so you support those who want to celebrate their heritage of hate.

33055

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:03 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

How would you feel if there were statues of Adolph Hitler of Hermann Goering and Heinrich Himmler on public property, in Monsey?

If you're not OK with that, then why should you be OK with statues of Robert E Lee and other Confederacy figures on public land. They seceded from the US. They stood for the enslavement of people. The "heritage" that these people want to preserve is one of hatred and oppression.

I would want them preserved to show an ugly part of history. If there was such widespread support, then maybe more public works would be in order to educate.

There was a Nazi recruitment camp on Long Island. I think the story must be told. I am for preserving that.

High level people in Britain supported the Nazis. I think this story must be told.

Do you think we should get rid of slave blocks and the slave houses that are preserved?

SixOfWands

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:04 pm

The Nazi march in Charlottesville had nothing to do with a plaque. It had to do with a statue, on public grounds, that the city ordered to be removed. Those opposed filed a lawsuit, and removal was enjoined. So the ugly thing is still there, reminding African Americans that their local government once supported enslaving them.

The plaque that Squishy keeps mentioning is on a tree outside a (former, closed) church in Brooklyn. Private property. The diocese -- private owners -- have decided to take it down. Its not even the original tree. Its the third one -- the first two died.

Fox

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:05 pm

Are you all seriously arguing about who's more loathesome, Nazis or Antifa?

Ladies, Antifa is not the ideological heir of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., or Mahatma Ghandi. It is the ideological heir of Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot.

You are debating whose ideas are worse, Hitler's or Stalin's?

Now, IMHO, a "fine" person who simply wants to protest the removal of statues and shows up at a protest to discover himself in the company of people with hoods and swastikas would back away and quickly go home. Likewise, a "fine" person who shows up to protest white supremacists and notices that he's on the side of people wearing black balaclavas in August would make himself scarce in a hurry.

Which leads us to a drastic but otherwise excellent suggestion: secure the perimeter and allow the Nazis and Antifa to fight to the death. The world would be better off without both.

MagentaYenta

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:10 pm

petiteruchy wrote:

...
Reply to MagentaYenta:

Sadly, on the left there are as many who are anti-black as there are anti-semites. The left is certainly not devoid of people who harbour and don't effectively interrogate their internal prejudices. But if the left as a whole is fighting for equality... fighting for justice... saying to mega-corporations that they can't just take what they want from the poor and leave destruction in their wake... well, denouncing the left and white supremacists in the same breath is pretty problematic.

There is nothing racist in criticizing the black block, we're talking anarchists of many skin colors who use any public demonstrations as a vehicle for unprovoked violence. Both the antifas and black block keep many folks my age away from metropolitan demonstrations. I fear their cudgels just as I fear those wielded by a member of the KKK.

33055

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:11 pm

Amarante wrote:

I remember as a little girl visiting the slave auction house. I also went to Alabama and saw the vestiges of separate but unequal. I saw the slave quarters in that journey. This had a profound effect on me.

I also went to West Point as a little girl and saw how General Lee was honored three. He served our country. To say he was 100% evil is wrong. What of his work with Johnson? Is there any part of this complex man that can be preserved? Personally, I don't see the harm in a plaque that said he planted a tree.

This is part of our history.

marina

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:16 pm

Squishy, I fundamentally don't get your history-preservation argument.

Sure, history is important. Language is important. But when large groups of people are offended by a particular term or historical monument, really, what's the harm in acquiescing?

Why isn't it enough for Confederate flags to be displayed in museums, like swastikas are? Why do we need to have them displayed on the streets, to be venerated by some and offensive to others?

Can't we use your historical argument for everything?

* I don't want to stop using the word [N word]/shv@rtze/[slow person]/zhid. It just means black/slow/Jew and why should the left crybabies who need coloring books and safe spaces control the language I use?

* I don't want the statute of Hitler in my front yard to be removed by the Libtards of America. it's a historical symbol and I don't want Hitler to be forgotten. Never Again! And if you don't like it, it's not your problem, just don't drive on my street.

* Fat people are just fat. And I won't accept this new-fangled idea that bodies are all different and special and waa-waa call the wambulance because I said you need to lose some weight. It's unhealthy and it's true and I'll say it like it is and the touchy-feely whiny liberals can all go have intercourse with themselves.

* I want to fly the Palestinian flag in front of my shul! It's an important symbol of the hate and persecution we Jews face. Yeah, it's true that some Palestinians are very happy to see their national symbol there, but whatever, I'm not going to erase our history just because some Muslim Terrorists Sympathizers want me to.

That's just not the way a civilized society works. If entire ethnic/social groups are offended by a term or a symbol, the rest of us have to seriously think about the benefits and drawbacks of keeping it up and continuing to use the term.

Does the benefit of keeping the confederate flag and statutes up really outweigh the drawbacks of hurting so many African Americans? Why? How is my knowledge of history enhanced more than if I went to see these symbols in a museum? What am I missing out on specifically that is so much more valuable than not hurting people whose ancestors have lived through these traumatic events?

And this applies to all sides. If republicans or orthodox Jews or Catholics don't want to be called some name or disrespected or whatever, why would you continue doing that? What's the big deal?

Kindness is the most important thing. More important than statutes or flags or remembering all the details of history. Kindness is the most important thing and we are failing at the most important thing.

Last edited by marina on Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

33055

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:16 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Yes, it part of the same movement to change the names and remove history.

If I ruled Broolyn, I would give it historic status and not allow its removal.

petiteruchy

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:17 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

and, as people have been trying to explain, these statues did NOT exist at the time of the Civil War. They were erected for the most part during the Jim Crow era. So like someone TODAY erecting a Hitler statue in a public space.

Also, and I can't believe I have to spell this out, but there is a HUGE difference between keeping Auschwitz or the slave blocks as a memorial and these statues. They come with plaques and displays explaining the history. There are codes of conduct. Which side modern society stands on when it comes to the time periods they display are not in question.

There is room for keeping those statues, but erecting along side of them, statues depicting the reality of what these people believed. Educational centers, plaques, etc. Codes of conduct that prohibit people from treating them like inspirational monuments. If the people that live in those cities want to go that route, I'd support them. Removal is a valid option as well. Many Third Reich monuments and statues have been removed and destroyed.

petiteruchy

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:19 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

oops, I see I misread your original post, I'll correct mine.

although I still hold that the so called "antifa" movement is a ridiculous concept dreamed up the alt-right media machine. black bloc, fine... they hold views that are extreme and not everyone wants to take part of.

Last edited by petiteruchy on Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

marina

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:19 pm

Quote:

What if back then you met an old woman who was a child slave? And seeing the slave auction house traumatized her and she began crying and having flashbacks and couldn't function?

Would you be like, hey grandma, just don't visit here babe and you'll be fine honey. My profound effect is more important than your drama-rama.

or would you be more nuanced in your thoughts?

Jeanette

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:25 pm

marina wrote:

Quote:

I don't think we should demolish Auschwitz and I don't think we should demolish slave auction houses. However, there's a difference between preserving a monument and erecting one to HONOR and CELEBRATE the perpetrators.