Trump's remarks | Imamother

33055

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:25 pm

marina wrote:

Squishy, I fundamentally don't get your history-preservation argument.

Sure, history is important. Language is important. But when large groups of people are offended by a particular term or historical monument, really, what's the harm in acquiescing?

Why isn't it enough for Confederate flags to be displayed in museums, like swastikas are? Why do we need to have them displayed on the streets, to be venerated by some and offensive to others?

Can't we use your historical argument for everything?

* I don't want to stop using the word [N word]/black/[slow person]/zhid. It just means black/slow/Jew and why should the left crybabies who need coloring books and safe spaces control the language I use?

* I don't want the statute of Hitler in my front yard to be removed by the Libtards of America. it's a historical symbol and I don't want Hitler to be forgotten. Never Again! And if you don't like it, it's not your problem, just don't drive on my street.

* Fat people are just fat. And I won't accept this new-fangled idea that bodies are all different and special and waa-waa call the wambulance because I said you need to lose some weight. It's unhealthy and it's true and I'll say it like it is and the touchy-feely whiny liberals can all go have intercourse with themselves.

* I want to fly the Palestinian flag in front of my shul! It's an important symbol of the hate and persecution we Jews face. Yeah, it's true that some Palestinians are very happy to see their national symbol there, but whatever, I'm not going to erase our history just because some Muslim Terrorists Sympathizers want me to.

That's just not the way a civilized society works. If entire ethnic/social groups are offended by a term or a symbol, the rest of us have to seriously think about the benefits and drawbacks of keeping it up and continuing to use the term.

Does the benefit of keeping the confederate flag and statutes up really outweigh the drawbacks of hurting so many African Americans? Why? How is my knowledge of history enhanced more than if I went to see these symbols in a museum? What am I missing out on specifically that is so much more valuable than not hurting people whose ancestors have lived through these traumatic events?

And this applies to all sides. If republicans or orthodox Jews or Catholics don't want to be called some name or disrespected or whatever, why would you continue doing that? What's the big deal?

Kindness is the most important thing. More important than statutes or flags or remembering all the details of history. Kindness is the most important thing and we are failing at the most important thing.

I understand what you are saying, but at what point do we stop? Is it one person uncomfortable for a moment then tear up history?

I was uncomfortable in concentration camps, but I truly believe they must be preserved. There is similar arguments to yours in Germany today that says to get rid of the camps because they make Germans uncomfortable. I spoke to several Germans who said the same thing - they were contrite and showed remorse. It is time to move on. I was also at a major corporation who stated the same thing in a film. Move on. I don't want to forget Jews were persecuted and enslaved; however, there is a large group of Germans who are uncomfortable. Who is more important?

Fox

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:31 pm

marina wrote:

That's just not the way a civilized society works. If entire ethnic/social groups are offended by a term or a symbol, the rest of us have to seriously think about the benefits and drawbacks of keeping it up and continuing to use the term.

ITA. However, the idea that an "entire ethnic/social group" is offended by something is not only inaccurate, but often reveals a sort of soft racism -- the assumption that members of a group share a childlike inability to hold opinions divergent from their ethnic/social identity.

Whether the positive contributions of an individual outweigh his negative impact on society must really be decided on a local, case-by-case basis. I've heard of a few statues that clearly, to my mind, should come down, but I've heard of others that weren't so clear-cut.

Context matters, too. How is information about the individual presented? Are the warts skillfully removed or allowed to show? Is the person portrayed as wholly good, wholly evil, or the messy and complex mixture that most people truly are?

The best way to repudiate both white supremacists and Antifa is to encourage communities to sort through individual cases and weigh the pros and cons of removing statues or possibly changing the manner of display. It will make a pleasant change from squabbling about zoning.

SixOfWands

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:33 pm

Jeanette wrote:

I don't think we should demolish Auschwitz and I don't think we should demolish slave auction houses. However, there's a difference between preserving a monument and erecting one to HONOR and CELEBRATE the perpetrators.

This.

We should not erase the history of the Civil War, or of slavery.

But we also should not be celebrating and honoring its leaders in public spaces.

The Confederate flag flew on the state house of South Carolina until 2015. But it hadn't flown there since 1864. No. It was placed there in the 1960s, as a symbol of opposition to the Civil Rights Movement. That flag was there to demonstrate South Carolina's opposition to the rights and equality of blacks. Period. Its removal was appropriate, an long overdue.

Just as the removal of statues is appropriate, and long overdue.

[I'm also not concerned that a private party's removal of a plaque saying that Robert E Lee planted a tree that died is erasing history.]

petiteruchy

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:34 pm

If African Americans... you know, the people whose ancestors were actually bought and sold on slave blocks, said that they wanted them demolished, I'd give that way more credence and consideration than a group of white Americans... you know, the people who profited from slavery, saying the same thing.

If Jewish people ... you know, the people whose ancestors perished there, came together and said these concentration camps are painful, we want them demolished, I'd take that more seriously than a group of Germans ... you know, the people whose ancestors worked there, saying that we should just move on.

Who is making the request is important. The voices of the people actually harmed by the historical event need to be heard and respected over all. Especially since they are still often marginalized and silenced by a mainstream desire to just have everyone get along and forget.

33055

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:36 pm

marina wrote:

Quote:

I remember as a little girl visiting the slave auction house. I also went to Alabama and saw the vestiges of separate but unequal. I saw the slave quarters in that journey. This had a profound effect on me.

What if back then you met an old woman who was a child slave? And seeing the slave auction house traumatized her and she began crying and having flashbacks and couldn't function?

Would you be like, hey grandma, just don't visit here babe and you'll be fine honey. My profound effect is more important than your drama-rama.

or would you be more nuanced in your thoughts?

I am not that old LOL

Of course I would feel for her. Marina, the purpose of these places is to make you feel and think. Seeing vestiges of Jim Crow also makes you think and feel. It brings history alive.

I have not visited the Smithsonian's Black Museum yet, but maybe that shouldn't exist in your world because that might trigger grandma.

WhatFor

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:37 pm

Squishy wrote:

This has been alluded to, but the statue in Charlottesville was erected over half a century after the civil war. What history would be preserved by leaving it up? The Charlottesville sentiments toward Robert E Lee in the early 1920s? And why are those sentiments more worthy of recognition than the Charlottesville sentiments in 2017?

I'm still very very confused about how people who align themselves with the party if Lincoln are also aligning themselves with the Confederate party. They literally fought against each other. But that's a discussion for another time.

DrMom

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:41 pm

Amarante wrote:

What the heck is the antifa. I don't know what it is and I'm in the left of almost everyone on this forum.

What am I supposed to be condemning them for? Marching against white supremacists and nazis😱

I am glad the one news outlet is not using the self branding of the white supremacists and will stop referring to the altright but take the cloak of euphemism away and refer to them as neo nazis and white supremists and white nationalists.

If you want to provide me with a litany of the sins of this group called altifa I have never heard of with similar moral equivalences, please do so. But I am shocked there are any defenders of people who came out against neo nazis and white supremacists.

The fact that you never heard of Antifa is a testament to how little coverage this violent and growing movement is getting in the mainstream US press.

They are far-left Fascists/Anarchists who have been marching on college campuses, instigating riots, intimidating police, physically assaulting anyone who disagrees with them for the past few months. They sometimes partner with BLM and other far left organizations.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-.....30831

Like Neo-Nazis, they are hateful and violent. They are anti-Semites too, in case that interests anyone here.

Disliking them in no way implies an embrace of Neo-Nazis. I dislike both radical groups and think they are both disgusting cancers on American society.

marina

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:47 pm

Squishy wrote:

So the example you offer is quite different because the perpetrators in your example are uncomfortable. The better analogy would be is if the vast majority of the Jews was horrified by the continued existence of the camps and the Germans wanted them up.

I don't think one person- like grandma in my slave auction block example - makes a huge difference, but if its the majority of the group, then, yeah, we should really think about it.

marina

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 12:58 pm

Fox wrote:

Aaaand . . . point to conservatives!

I really don't get it.

In half your posts here, you are displeased with people assuming that the entire ethnic group feels a certain way about the statutes, painting them all with a broad brush, etc. That's what you literally just now called the soft racism of identity driven politics. You find assuming that an entire group feels a certain way to be inaccurate and offensive to them.

But when left-leaning posters here emphasize that they do not agree with extremist leftist movements and are not even familiar with them, you don't stop and think "gosh, maybe I shouldn't paint the entire left with a broad brush, it seems like the entire left doesn't speak with one voice."

Instead you take her comment as a win for conservatives?

Really? Really?

Last edited by marina on Wed, Aug 16 2017, 1:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

sushilover

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 1:00 pm

marina wrote:

Kindness is the most important thing. More important than statutes or flags or remembering all the details of history. Kindness is the most important thing and we are failing at the most important thing.

Your avatar offends me - why flaunt a gay character on a frum website????

Do you think my feelings are reason enough to change your picture? kindness is important!!

(P.S. no, I am not actually offended, but maybe someone else is LOL

)

But seriously at what point do we decide that something is offensive enough to be banned? For me, the answer is if we are in a democracy, we vote for it. If a statue or flag is so offensive to you, vote for someone like Nikki Haley who promises to remove them and perhaps place them in museums.
What's your answer?

marina

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 1:03 pm

sushilover wrote:

it's a good question and I don't know that voting is the answer. Say a city in America finds circumcision to be offensive and immoral and bans circumcision through a vote. Is that acceptable to you just because they voted? I don't think so.

If the voters are generally the people not from the affected ethnic/social group, I don't know that their votes are all that important to me.

sushilover

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 1:05 pm

marina wrote:

amarante didn't say she disagrees with antifa, just that she does not know who they are shock

Would you be shocked if a right winger said they did not know who David Duke and refuses to disavow him? (trip down memory lane to Jake Tapper's infamous Trump interview)

marina

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 1:09 pm

Jeanette wrote:

This is part of my point. We can all have our own opinions on Auschwitz and slave blocks and statutes and flags and pejorative words. That's fine.

But if we deliberately disregard entire ethnic/social groups who are hurt by this, what does that make us? Stubbornly selfish? Inconsiderate? Arrogant? I dk, but nothing good.

Why is my personal opinion on slave blocks more important than that of those people whose ancestors were sold there?