Areas where modern orthodox are more machmir

amother

Yellow

Wed, Aug 23 2017, 8:54 pm

The premise of this thread is confusing. You use the word machmir, which indicates strictness in halacha, but you're actually discussing values, not halacha.

I'm all for pointing out the good in each community. I think what you mean to say is, these are values in the MO community and they have a positive impact on our Judaism.

Many of the values you discuss are shared with other factions of Judaism (and humanity, for that matter). You should definitely feel proud of your community's strong positive values.

CDL

Wed, Aug 23 2017, 8:58 pm

I think the modern orthodox are in general more machmir on ahavas yisrael. I remind myself this when a judgmental thought creeps in. I need to emulate them in this area.

For those that find themselves judging other communities, I find it helps to focus on something positive that they do better than you, so that you can look up to them in some area.
ETA: I'm pretty sure ve-ahavta lereacha kamocha is a mitzvah, and so the term machmir should apply in my example. Its not just a value.

tichellady

Wed, Aug 23 2017, 9:00 pm

amother wrote:

I don't see how my examples are not about halakha. Don't you think values go into all halakhic decisions whether they be listening or not listening to non Jewish music, wearing tights or not, having Sunday school for boys, allowing a couple to go to the mikvah early because of infertility, teaching mishna and Gemara to girls- these halakahic decisions are all based on halakahic values such as modesty, Talmud Torah, pru urvu etc

zaq

Wed, Aug 23 2017, 9:04 pm

What yellow said. Are you a fellow word-nerd, yellow?

And there seems to be an attitude here that being machmir is by definition better. I'm not so sure. Shvil Hazahav, people. Always looking for the Chumrah of the Month leads ultimately to fanaticism. Burka ladies, Lev Tahor groupies, Bus shelter burnings, and more.

tichellady

Wed, Aug 23 2017, 9:14 pm

zaq wrote:

It's hard for me to understand how you can separate halakha from values. How do you think halakhic decisions are made?

I totally agree that being machmir without taking in account the values of halakha is dangerous- and I think all the examples you gave fall into that category

amother

Yellow

Wed, Aug 23 2017, 9:35 pm

tichellady wrote:

Well, technically all Orthodox Jews believe in strictly following halacha. What your thread seems to be about is the areas the people in your community place emphasize in their halachic lives.

No branch of Orthodoxy that I'm aware of makes a conscious choice to be meikil on any of these mitzvot. It's simply a matter of believing that value x supercedes value y when determining the halacha. Thus, halacha may be interpreted differently. Again, that is not at all the opposite of being machmir on that mitzvah.

Btw, I suspect that what you call "tikun olam" does not have a source in orthodoxy. It certainly is not a halachic concept.

amother

Scarlet

Wed, Aug 23 2017, 11:08 pm

I was asked to lead a pre-school activity at a MO synagogue. From talking with the administrative staff, and watching what went on there, I learned that there is a tremendous amount of chessed that is done very quietly and without embarrassing those who are on the receiving end.

I don't know if it is true in every MO synagogue, but I think there are a lot of things that are taken care of quietly.

I know from having a medical problem there are also a lot of MO individuals in health care who are able to quietly do chessed using their professional knowledge, that only the recipient knows how they were helped and who helped them.

As well had some MO college students who do bikur cholim on Shabbas because their schools are near medical centers.

amother

Indigo

Wed, Aug 23 2017, 11:35 pm

With the exception of gemarah for women, OP do you mean to say that the MO community is more careful with tzaar baalei chaim than other communities? Shalom Bayis? Even loving EY is weird to suggest

Frankly this thread doesn't sound so nice. It almost sounds a little haughty although I'm assuming that these are your observations and you are not MO and tooting your own horn.

amother

Ruby

Wed, Aug 23 2017, 11:55 pm

In an area of "strict" halacha - MO rabbis tend to be more machmir in questions of taharas hamishpacha than in other communities. This is something you don't see, so you don't know about it.

Schools pay their employees on time, as halacha requires.

In terms of chessed, MO communities do for free things that are sometimes transactions elsewhere. Eg, no one expects to be paid for introducing a young couple to each other. Schools are community institutions, not owned by individual families as in some places. And as a poster mentioned above, because there are professionals within the community, they often lend their expertise to those who need it.

tichellady

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 12:08 am

amother wrote:

I have actually thought that about niddah but don't know enough to ascertain if that's true or not .

amother

Ruby

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 12:10 am

tichellady wrote:

I have actually thought that about niddah but don't know enough to ascertain if that's true or not .

That's what I was told by a Rav who deals with these issues. I haven't shopped around myself.

tichellady

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 12:10 am

amother wrote:

That's not how I meant it and no that's my intention at all . Feel free to skip this thread if you are not getting it and finding it weird ( I'm not saying that in a mean voice, I'm serious, there are lots of threads where I feel like I'm missing something so I usually just don't respond and I stop reading them).

tichellady

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 12:11 am

amother wrote:

That's what I was told by a Rav who deals with these issues. I haven't shopped around myself.

Good to know! This is not an area where I want to be machmir

amother

Firebrick

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 12:22 am

Modern orthodox schools are makpid on paying their teachers on time- paying your workers on time is an absolute din. My in-laws are very involved in the local school and it sometimes has cash flow issues (meaning payday is Friday, but the school won't have the money until Monday). My MO in-laws have loaned the school their entire checking account for the weekend so that the school can pay it's teachers on time- multiple times.

etky

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 12:56 am

Yellow - I can't like your posts enough.
This thread makes me very uncomfortable, not least because it can only be based on subjective generalizations about the various streams of Judaism that it brings up for discussion.
And yes, tikun olam is a concept that in its most modern iteration has been borrowed from the non-Orthodox streams of Judaism who are its most ardent champions - and for whom it unfortunately often becomes the sum total of what Judaism is about.

ibelongtosomebody

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 1:09 am

Quote: It's hard for me to understand how you can separate halakha from values. How do you think halakhic decisions are made?

Halakhic decisions are not based on human biases to certain values; they are drawn from a halakhic process, the details of which were given to Moshe at Sinai. And pseudo-psak that derives from personal values is not granted legitimacy because "this is what our community values."

The primary "value" in halakha? Hayarei vehachareid m'dvar Hashem!

ibelongtosomebody

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 1:13 am

Perhaps, by "value", you mean the spirit of the law. But you cannot decide a halachah based on your understanding of its spirit, or based on your valuing another "spirit" more.

tichellady

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 1:17 am

ibelongtosomebody wrote:

That is all very nice but I have no idea what you are actually saying. Have you ever learned Mishna or Gemara?

tichellady

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 1:20 am

etky wrote:

I know that tikun olam is not used today in the same way that it was used in the Gemara- language changes, it happens with plenty of expressions that orthodox people use too. Do you know that taharat hamischpacha ( in the context we use it) is a modern term? I think that fixing the world is actually what all streams of Judaism care about- we just see different ways to get there. Perhaps that was not a very good example to mention

tichellady

Thu, Aug 24 2017, 1:23 am

ibelongtosomebody wrote:

Perhaps, by "value", you mean the spirit of the law. But you cannot decide a halachah based on your understanding of its spirit, or based on your valuing another "spirit" more.

I don't decide halakhic at all because I don't have the knowledge or expertise . But I do truly think that values are taken into account when paskening halakha and I have heard this from rebbeim. I am not sure why you find this troubling. Why do you think the details and situation matter when asking for a psak? Because the rabbi needs to weigh the different issues and competing halakhic values in order to give the best advice/ ruling