are we required to judge Hashem favorably?

PinkFridge

Wed, Aug 30 2017, 12:45 pm

marina wrote:

We are not obligated to judge God favorably at all. I have no idea why anyone would look at pictures of starving, dying children and even think that they deserve all that is coming to them.

This is a little bit of a different question than why bad things happen to good people.

But in any case, we never ever let God off the hook for all the **** going on in the world and we never just accept it or decide that those people deserve it or that it's okay that we don't understand.

Because as soon as you do that, there's no reason to try and change anything. Oh, I just don't understand Hashem's ways so I won't work on curing cancer. Life is a tapestry and we only see one side. So I won't try to stop genocide. We are like toddlers and cannot understand God. So no need to help the hurricane victims. It's all part of ratzon hashem, which we cannot understand.

Any prayer demanding a better outcome, any action to improve the world, is judging God, and we do it all day every day.

Life is a tapestry and I don't understand, but we are not supposed to passively accept. Somehow we hold what seem like opposing thoughts: there is a reason and we will understand it one day, and we have a mandate to connect and pray that things change.

PinkFridge

Wed, Aug 30 2017, 12:46 pm

amother wrote:

granted, but how does that give comfort to people that are suffering? Should I tell a person suffering not to worry because they are in good hands since hashem is all compassionate? How should a person suffering apply hashem's compassion to their predicament? The truth is, they can't. They can only repeat words that really make no sense to a human being.

The role of being supportive doesn't always entail providing hashkafa.

leah233

Wed, Aug 30 2017, 1:19 pm

amother wrote:

Iyov's friends telling him that he must be suffering because of aveiros he did is given as an example of Onas Devorim in Shulchan Orech.

tichellady

Wed, Aug 30 2017, 1:22 pm

amother wrote:

Give comfort by being a good friend and showing compassion and support. No need to bring Gd into this when we don't understand how He works

amother

Slategray

Wed, Aug 30 2017, 1:32 pm

tichellady wrote:

Give comfort by being a good friend and showing compassion and support. No need to bring Gd into this when we don't understand how He works

True, although I'm not on the level where I would say anything about hashem to a person that's suffering anyway. It really just confuses me when I see a tragedy where terrible horrifying things happen to a family and the family will say, "chasdei hashem, it could have been even worse. We see the kindness of hashem every day". When I hear these comments, I'm torn between wondering if I'm missing something, or is Judaism a bit cult like and people say things with complete sincerity that are completely illogical and make no sense.

tichellady

Wed, Aug 30 2017, 2:37 pm

amother wrote:

I can relate to what you are saying.

I have had some bad life experiences and at the time felt really angry and hurt but after some time passed realized that it could have been much worse, and came to a place of peace about what happened. I often assume those people are insincere or are just trying to be somewhat positive so they don't completely fall apart

I stopped saying "Thank Gd" lately. I feel like I only say it when good things happen, and it's dishonest to only think the good things come from Gd and not the bad things. I am not ready to say it for bad things and I try to be sincere about what I say.

Seas

Wed, Aug 30 2017, 2:49 pm

I absolutely believe that Hashem is the ultimate exemplification of compassion and good. After all He created compassion and good and He is the source of it.

To say otherwise is stupidity at best, and at worst apikorsus.

Do I understand His ways?

Duh, I'm mortal and He's God, so obviously not. But I absolutely believe.

Keil emunah ve'ein avel tzaddik veyashar hu.

PinkFridge

Wed, Aug 30 2017, 3:33 pm

amother wrote:

Remember Yosef, and how he found encouragement in being sold to a caravan with sweet smelling spices?
It's not something other people can necessarily say. Or only particular people can say it. But it's something that people going through something themselves come to.

amother

Slategray

Wed, Aug 30 2017, 3:50 pm

Seas wrote:

I don't see how you can say it's stupidity to argue that hashem brings evil to the world. Usually a debate between me and you will go nowhere since it won't matter what I say or how many indisputable examples of terrible cruelty I bring. You're not arguing your point from a standpoint of logic. You're coming from a standpoint of complete blind faith which is impossible to argue with. But to say the other side is stupid when in fact at face value it's entirely logical, is ridiculous.
I can accept on some level that we don't understand hashem. Unfortunately I have a hard time internalizing something (hashem is all good) that flies in the face of human logic and can only be understood on a very superficial level and explaining all the bad with "we don't understand hashem". For me to say that when 6 million jews died in the holocaust was good, seems kind of silly.

pause

Wed, Aug 30 2017, 7:55 pm

tichellady wrote:

We are taught to be mevarech Hashem al ha'ra k'shem shemevarech al hatov (bless Him on the bad like we bless Him on the good). From this we see that it is human nature to thank G-d for the good He does, and that acknowledging the good comes more easily and more naturally than the bad.

Being grateful and thanking Hashem for the good is a stepping stone for acknowledging that everything, good and bad, is from Him.

I'm not judging you for your choice, but it doesn't seem to me that stopping to thank Him for the good would bring you closer to Him and to the ideal you are striving for. When you thank Him, you are fully sincere.

In addition, and this is besides the point, being grateful enhances your life. It brings more shefa and bracha in your life. It's like Hashem sees that you're a person worth bestowing good on because you are thankful for it, and it brings you closer to Him.

I wish for you that you have and see only good in your life from now on!

Seas

Wed, Aug 30 2017, 8:21 pm

amother wrote:

Obviously the way Hashem's will manifests itself often appears to us to be 'bad'. That is what the posuk means בורא רע, that even the seemingly bad things that happen are also from Hashem, and that there aren't numerous forces in power.

We cannot always see the chesed Hashem and it's not always clear to us why Hashem did what He did. Though we must never question Hashem.

However, to think that a human being has greater capacity for compassion than Hashem - the One who actually created compassion and instilled it into humans - is stupidity at best.

Hashem is the inventor and source of compassion, and is the ultimate בעל הרחמים. Humans cannot and will not ever come close to even comprehending Hashem's actions, let alone have the ability to judge them.

We have no right to judge Hashem whether it's lkaf zechus or not (even talking about judging Hashem is gross chutzpah). He does as He wills, and there is no one who can tell Him what to do and how to act.

It behooves us to fully submit to the will of our Master and Creator, without ever deigning to second guess Him.

amother

Mustard

Wed, Aug 30 2017, 8:35 pm

Thanks for all the replying.

This is op

You have given me a lot to think about.

My problem is that when I see an in- justice committed by a person (as opposed to an "Act of God" like an earthquake or something) I become almost paralizationed with how unfair it is. Why did God allow it? Not s Tue if I should be saying to myself - he us getting what he deserved?

But then I think- did I also only get what I deserved? But it's more about being so sad and angry for the other person that I can't help them. So I was thinking if I could tell myself I'm doing an aveira thinking like this, rather I should dklz H that it is really fair I just can't see it.

Hearing that this too it's arrogant makes me v sad.

I was going to write more but maybe tomorrow.

pause

Wed, Aug 30 2017, 8:40 pm

amother wrote:

The person who did the bad thing was a shaliach from Hashem. The person had the choice to act however he acted, but the pain that was caused to the other person was measured out precisely by Hashem. It's all from Him as much as it might not seem so. And that's another very difficult madreiga to attain: there's no point in carrying a grudge at someone for hurting us because that person was a messenger, and the pain that was inflicted upon us was bashert for us.

Easier said than done...

amother

Mustard

Wed, Aug 30 2017, 8:58 pm

pause wrote:

No don't get me wrong. I get this bit.

But going from that to Hashem is ultimately kind? So if you judge Hashem fairly vis what He did was fair, how can you also judge the wrongdoer fairly?

I'm left with bad stuff happened to them because they were bad.

I also have "bad stuff happened to me because I am bad, coz I know I'm bad. That's easier somehow.