Are all Ashkenazi Jews descendants of Yiddish

Chayalle

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 10:37 am

Ruchel wrote:

The only reason why Ladino isn't often said to be holy is the Shoah so most of those people now are frei. But those who aren't may disagree with its use for "light" songs, as we have had a dilemma some years ago.

We were once Shabbos guests at a Sephardic family from Mexico, and they sang beautiful Ladino zemirot.

amother

Wine

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 10:47 am

chanchy123 wrote:

I'm pretty sure this comment was meant to offend. I'm not sure why I deserve this offense.
Of course the Hebrew our ancestors spoke was somewhat different than spoken Hebrew today. All languages evolve, that's only natural. However Hebrew is still Hebrew is still Hebrew -the language of the Jews.
Yes, it has evolved but it is still the same language.
There were many local jargons that Jews spoke among themselves. But the only language that has been with the Jewish people since its inception is the Hebrew language that Jews from Yemen to Irkutzk could share.
Avraham Avinu was the first Hebrew and we follow in his footsteps.

No I didn't mean to offend at all.
I live in Israel. I haven't managed to master Hebrew perfectly yet though my children attend Hebrew-speaking schools so it's our spoken language too.
I still don't call the Hebrew of today the same as the lashon Hakodesh that used to be spoken and that's what I was pointing out. Of course it's a derivative from the same language, but it isn't at all holy.

etky

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 10:53 am

I know no Yiddish other than a number of expressions that my grandparents used and my father still uses today.
My grandparents learned both Yiddish and English simultaneously, as mother tongues, so even their Yiddish was probably somewhat less authentic than those born in Europe.
I wish I knew Yiddish. I feel sometimes that it is the missing link to my ancestors in the 'old country' (Poland,Ukraine, Latvia). It is a language that my ancestors spoke for generations and knowing it might somehow be a way to connect more intimately with them and their culture.

amother

Apricot

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 11:10 am

[quote="amother"]Maybe I was unique, but a lot of these words that you are talking about I never heard my grandparents say.[/quote

Bupkis is pretty widely-used.

Drek is a typical word. I'm pretty sure people who say schm*k don't realize it means something worse than Moron.

etky

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 11:13 am

amother wrote:

At what point in its evolution did Hebrew stop being holy?
Are the prayers we recite from the siddur, dating largely to the Geonic period, holy?
Are the halachic compendiums of the Medieval period holy?
What about halachic and hashkafic works from the modern period?
How is it that a speaker of modern Hebrew can read all these works and understand them if it is not one and the same language?
I think your distinction between 'lashon hakodesh' and 'modern Hebrew" is aritificial and wrong.
Hebrew is holy in my eyes because it is the language in which G-d spoke to us and gave us the Torah but now, as in ancient times, it has secular applications too.
The real division is not between ancient and modern Hebrew but between sacred and secular texts and applications.

amother

Wine

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 11:18 am

etky wrote:

At what point in its evolution did Hebrew stop being holy?
.

Modern Hebrew is a Jewish language though considering it holy like lashon hakodesh is almost the same as considering German to be the same as Yiddish.

I actually don't call Yiddish a 'holy language' either, though since it was used for many generations (many of those which were far less tainted from being in galus then we are) then I do think there is something special and perhaps more 'pure' about it.

Mommyg8

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 12:00 pm

etky wrote:

Modern hebrew was created by secular Jews, and it is different than Biblical Hebrew. There is a very definite distinction between modern Hebrew and Loshon Hakodesh - it's really a different language, as anyone who has tried to use Chumash Hebrew in Israel can attest. I don't know if it is holy, I assume it is, but it is definitely NOT universal among all Jews. I can't speak modern Hebrew, and I would assume most Chassidim can't speak it either.

Mommyg8

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 12:03 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I don't think it's considered holy on the level of Lashon HaKodesh. It's just that it's a Jewish dialect. Wherever Jews lived there have been Jewish dialects that set us aside from the host countries we lived in. Aramaic, Ladino, etc...were also languages of the Jews.

When I was in high school, they used to incorporate one yiddish song into our annual concert. I used to grit my teeth at their pronunciations, and the girls who sang them often had no clue what they were singing.....

I was taught that it is holy. Then again, I went to a Chassidishe school, things are done differently there...

Mommyg8

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 12:05 pm

Chayalle wrote:

My father grew up in Vienna, and he has told me that when he came to Yeshiva in the US, he had a hard time understanding the yiddish spoken here. Austrians speak Deutch, pretty much the same as Germans (not to be confused with Swiss German, which they can't stand and consider to be peasant speech.)

Many people who spoke yiddish incorporated words from their host country's language, so people living in Poland, for example, would speak polish yiddish, and people living in Hungary would speak Hungarian yiddish. Only the yiddish is similar to German - not the other words.

When I got married, DH's Litivish grandparents spoke "yiddish" words I had never heard before.

When I went to Vienna as a teen, I slept in the first morning, and then went to meet my grandparents at their shop. I had no trouble asking for and following directions in German.

I don't know if Litvishe Yiddish is similar to Austrian German, probably the accent is completely different. My yiddish originated in Galicia, and I communicated perfectly in Austrian-German.

amother

Magenta

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 12:49 pm

Yiddish was both of my parents first language. They chose not to teach it to us. I have always wanted to learn but have never found the opportunity.

etky

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 12:51 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Of course there are differences. Languages, even one that was effectively 'mummified' like Hebrew for many generations, are never stagnant. Even in tanach itself there are many lingistic differences between books from different periods. And Lashon chachamim was even more different as was Rashi's Hebrew and the Hebrew of the medieval piyutim. The question is: is there enough continuity and carryover to claim that Modern Hebrew is the evolved form of biblical Hebrew or are they two separate, lingusitically distinct entities? I would argue that they are not. Certainly Modern Hebrew is much more akin to biblical Hebrew than Modern Greek is to Ancient Greek or Modern English to Old or even Middle English. Consider the following 'translation' from Tanach Ram (sort of like Monarch notes on Shakespeare) - a series that transposed the tanach into spoken modern Hebrew for schoolkids:

א. וּבַחֹדֶשׁ הַשְּׁבִיעִי בְּאֶחָד לַחֹדֶשׁ מִקְרָא-קֹדֶשׁ יִהְיֶה לָכֶם כָּל-מְלֶאכֶת עֲבֹדָה לֹא תַעֲשׂוּ יוֹם תְּרוּעָה יִהְיֶה לָכֶם: ב. וַעֲשִׂיתֶם עֹלָה לְרֵיחַ נִיחֹחַ לַיהֹוָה פַּר בֶּן-בָּקָר אֶחָד אַיִל אֶחָד כְּבָשִׂים בְּנֵי-שָׁנָה שִׁבְעָה תְּמִימִם: ג. וּמִנְחָתָם סֹלֶת בְּלוּלָה בַשָּׁמֶן שְׁלֹשָׁה עֶשְׂרֹנִים לַפָּר שְׁנֵי עֶשְׂרֹנִים לָאָיִל: ד. וְעִשָּׂרוֹן אֶחָד לַכֶּבֶשׂ הָאֶחָד לְשִׁבְעַת הַכְּבָשִׂים: ה. וּשְׂעִיר-עִזִּים אֶחָד חַטָּאת לְכַפֵּר עֲלֵיכֶם: ו. מִלְּבַד עֹלַת הַחֹדֶשׁ וּמִנְחָתָהּ וְעֹלַת הַתָּמִיד וּמִנְחָתָהּ וְנִסְכֵּיהֶם כְּמִשְׁפָּטָם לְרֵיחַ נִיחֹחַ אִשֶּׁה לַיהֹוָה:

and the 'translation':

1. וּבְאֶחָד לַחֹדֶשׁ הַשְּׁבִיעִי יִהְיֶה לָכֶם מִקְרָא קֹדֶשׁ, וְאַל תַּעֲשׂוּ בּוֹ שׁוּם מְלָאכָה; יוֹם זֶה יִהְיֶה לָכֶם יוֹם תְּרוּעָה. 2. וְתַקְרִיבוּ עוֹלָה כְּדֵי לְהַעֲלוֹת רֵיחַ נִיחוֹחַ לַה': פַּר אֶחָד וְאַיִל אֶחָד, וְשִׁבְעָה כְּבָשִׂים בְּנֵי שָׁנָה, בְּלִי מוּם. 3. וְהַמִּנְחָה הַמְּצֹרֶפֶת אֲלֵיהֶם: סֹלֶת בְּלוּלָה בְּשֶׁמֶן — שְׁלוֹשָׁה עֶשְׂרוֹנִים עִם הַפָּר וּשְׁנֵי עֶשְׂרוֹנִים עִם הָאַיִל, 4. וְעִשָּׂרוֹן אֶחָד עִם כָּל אֶחָד מִשִּׁבְעַת הַכְּבָשִׂים. 5. וְשָׂעִיר אֶחָד תַּקְרִיבוּ כְּחַטָּאת, כְּדֵי לְכַפֵּר עֲלֵיכֶם. 6. כָּל אֵלֶּה, נוֹסָף עַל עוֹלַת הַחֹדֶשׁ עִם הַמִּנְחָה וְנוֹסָף עַל עוֹלַת הַתָּמִיד עִם הַמִּנְחָה וְעִם הַנְּסָכִים, שֶׁיֻּקְרְבוּ כַּדִּין; כָּל אֵלֶּה יַעֲלוּ עַל אֵשׁ הַמִּזְבֵּחַ כְּדֵי לְהַעֲלוֹת רֵיחַ נִיחוֹחַ לַה'.

Despite the divergences, I hardly think these are two distinct, autonomous languages.

heidi

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 1:15 pm

As far as I understand,Yiddish was the language the Jews used so the non jews in galut wouldn't understand them. Not sure what makes it holy.
I actually find it ironic when Israeli parents think it's better for their children to learn Torah in the language of galut than in Lashon Hakodesh.

Ruchel

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 1:23 pm

If anything Yiddish made it easier to communicate with local non jews, and always included local words - same as Ladino, Judeo-French... I find it ironical I NEVER got a bad word on Yiddish from non Jews but always from some tacky Jews. Now, Torah should be learned in its language. Not in Yiddish, not in ladino (granted, traditionally, WOMEN often lfearned it so), not in "modern ivrit".

There's this video, a Yiddish speaker trying to see if Germans understand. I used my Yiddish a lot in German, Flemish land and Austria. Yes they understand, barring Hebrew words and some very different pronounciations. It is most close to countryside, Southern German, according to one.

Chloe

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 1:25 pm

To me, Yiddish is a sentimental language. Something from the past, that I'd want to hold on to. I thought only Loshon Hakodesh was holy.

amother

Wine

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 2:05 pm

heidi wrote:

The choice is translating the chumash from Lashon Hakodesh to Modern Hebrew or translating from Lashon Hakodesh to Yiddish. No one is translating from Lashon Hakodesh to Lashon Hakodesh.

I personally find both options equal. The only language I consider holy is Lashon Hakodesh, Biblical Hebrew.

newmom1987

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 2:57 pm

Yiddish was not only spoken by the frum Jews. It was spoken by all of the Jews, and not all of them were frum. So yes, the curses are authentic too.

etky

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 3:02 pm

amother wrote:

So anything written in post-biblical Hebrew is not written in lashon hakodesh?
The Mishnah and other non-Aramaic rabbinic works (tosefta,midrashic literature etc.), the liturgy of the siddur, the mepharshim on tanach, the medieval piyutim, halachic and hashkafic literature of the medieval and modern periods etc....

amother

Wine

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 3:07 pm

etky wrote:

All the non-Aramaic rabbinic works are written in Lashon Hakodesh, not the Modern evolvement of Hebrew. They ARE written in Biblical Hebrew.

The distinction is what language they are written in.

amother

Goldenrod

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 3:17 pm

newmom1987 wrote:

Yiddish was not only spoken by the frum Jews. It was spoken by all of the Jews, and not all of them were frum. So yes, the curses are authentic too.

I understand, but I was speaking from my perspective only. How can I speak from someone else's perspective?

I want my yiddish to be preserved.

etky

Mon, Oct 23 2017, 3:24 pm

amother wrote:

All the non-Aramaic rabbinic works are written in Lashon Hakodesh, not the Modern evolvement of Hebrew. They ARE written in Biblical Hebrew.

The distinction is what language they are written in.

Ok. Believe what you want.