Is cleaning help a necessity or luxury

amother

Rose

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 6:44 pm

ra_mom wrote:

I stand by what I said.
Cleaning is a necessity - Ask social services if a dirty home is considered neglect.
Those who can't clean need help - Help can come from anywhere; spouse, children, extended family. But cleaning is a need not a luxury and someone needs to do it.

There's a lot of middle ground between "floors and counters sparkling all the time" and "so unsanitary that CPS is involved." If kids are not being bathed, wearing dirty clothes, roaches everywhere, rotting food in the fridge, I would hope social services is involved. But messy rooms, piles of laundry, dirty dishes in the sink etc are not grounds for a complaint of child neglect.

I know because one of my children was born with special needs and needed early intervention. There were scores of therapists and social workers coming through the doors of our very messy home but nobody ever suggested removing the kids.

ra_mom

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 6:46 pm

amother wrote:

Of course.

amother

Navy

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 6:59 pm

amother wrote:

It is not a necessity in the sense that it is life-threatening without.

However, it is a necessity for many to have the status we refer to as "managing."

Remember, just as there are those who can file their taxes alone, and theoretically ANYONE can, most of us understand that it is often best outsourced. Same for changing oil, changing tires, taking trash to the dump, cutting hair, etc. Yes, theoretically anyone can learn, but for many of us we are just going to be inept.

With cooking, for example. Some people are really good and can take a box of raw material and come up with an award-winning meal. Others manage to burn everything they touch, and are best off sticking with frozen french fries and boxed cake mixes.

Cleaning can be like that too, except there are fewer shortcuts, if your home is to look decent. Can you "manage" without help if you are one of the inept sort, are low on energy, or are overwhelmed with your other responsibilities? Well, not to any standards. You can SURVIVE without it, but not thrive.

It's not quite "necessity" level, but I'm not comfortable calling it "luxury" either. (Unless, of course, you consider boxed cake mix and telephones luxury too.)

Great post! So well said, esp the bolded.

Can one survive without cleaning help? Yes.

Can one manage without cleaning help? Depends on the person.

Can one survive working full time and raising a family? Yes.

Can one manage working fill time and raising a family? Depends on the person.

As I said before, everyone has a different idea of what makes their life manageable vs unmanageable. For me it is work-related. For some it is cleaning. For some it is cooking. Etc. Etc. But regardless there are some who do not have the funds to ameliorate whatever aspect is making life unmanageable and therefore have to just subsist on the survival level.

amother

Fuchsia

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 7:05 pm

amother wrote:

Outside of the community I know single parents with multiple kids working long hours, sometimes two jobs a day who do not have cleaning help. They don't have tzedakah and resources that the Jewish community has so I don't think the comparison is unfair at all, just because they don't keep Shabbos. Many non-Jewish families do big meals on a Sunday for their families.

Most of the single (non-Jewish mothers) that I know have some kind of family help.

Also, they probably have smaller families.

And, probably, some of them just don't manage.

zaq

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 7:14 pm

By definition, a luxury is something that provides ease or comfort but is not necessary to life and health. Thank you, Merriam Webster. By that definition, cleaning help may be a luxury, but so are many things we take for granted. New clothes, for example, when our old ones are still in one piece. Solid white tuna. Children’s toys. ice cream, even supermarket brand. OTOH for a disabled person who cannot clean house, an outside cleaner is obviously a necessity, just as a babysitter is a necessity for a couple who work outside the home.

But another definition is “the use and enjoyment of the most costly things that offer the most physical comfort and satisfaction.” By this definition, well, it depends on your circumstances. If you could clean but don’t want to, it’s a luxury. If you can’t clean, or can’t clean well enough, it’s not.

amother

Coral

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 8:05 pm

Many good points brought up here.
Another point: Outside our community, actually, many families with 2-3 children have full time nannies or au pairs. Maybe you just don't know these people so you think only those you associate with are the norm and we, frum women, are crazy.
Go to Manhattan - women with 1-2 children have live ins or nannies. Hamptons, Boca Raton... They all have full time help, with MUCH LESS 'need' than we do (I.e. much less number of children, no weekly Shabbos dinners, etc etc). Our lives, in comparison to the typical non Jewish family, is beyond hectic.
We have to do what works for us.
You need to do what works for you.
Whatever it is that will make your home function is what you need. If you need cleaning help, or more hours of cleaning help, in order to be a sane, functional, happy mother, then there should be absolutely no guilt over it. If you don't need that but need to take out dinner every night, then that's what you should do. Obviously you need to prioritize where you spend your money to be able to do this. But no one should feel guilty or wrong that they are taking cleaning help if that's what they need.

amother

Rose

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 8:10 pm

amother wrote:

Many good points brought up here.
Another point: Outside our community, actually, many families with 2-3 children have full time nannies or au pairs. Maybe you just don't know these people so you think only those you associate with are the norm and we, frum women, are crazy.
Go to Manhattan - women with 1-2 children have live ins or nannies. Hamptons, Boca Raton... They all have full time help, with MUCH LESS 'need' than we do (I.e. much less number of children, no weekly Shabbos dinners, etc etc). Our lives, in comparison to the typical non Jewish family, is beyond hectic.
We have to do what works for us.
You need to do what works for you.
Whatever it is that will make your home function is what you need. If you need cleaning help, or more hours of cleaning help, in order to be a sane, functional, happy mother, then there should be absolutely no guilt over it. If you don't need that but need to take out dinner every *night, then that's what you should do. Obviously you need to prioritize where you spend your money to be able to do this. But no one should feel guilty or wrong that they are taking cleaning help if that's what they need.

You are talking about wealthy families. It is not at all typical for middle to lower income to have nannies or full time household help.

amother

Seafoam

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 8:43 pm

amother wrote:

Most of the single (non-Jewish mothers) that I know have some kind of family help.

Also, they probably have smaller families.

And, probably, some of them just don't manage.

By "manage" do you mean their floors are not sparkling clean because they don't employ someone?

When I was a single mother, I did not have "some kind of family help" at all.

Now I am not a single mother and I am blessed to be able to afford cleaning help if I wanted it, but I don't view it as needed. I am happy to "manage" without, even if my floors don't gleam like others would like them to.

amother

Seafoam

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 8:48 pm

ra_mom wrote:

A dirty home is not considered neglect. Ignoring your children's needs is considered neglect. A clean floor is nice to have but not a need.

Neglect and child abuse can also happen in houses with immaculate sparkling sinks and floors.

amother

Black

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 9:03 pm

I used to be a sahm for years. I did it all by myself. Dh works to many hours and some days didn't see the kids at all.

My youngest is in school so I went to work. Now I am doing it all plus working. I leave 30 min after my youngest and if I dont run on a quick errand I have 30 minutes at home before I need to be at the bus stop.

My house is a wreck. My kids hate helping, but will clean up for shabbos, most times. On Thursdays I start feeling stressed out about everything that needs to get done.

Dh feels like we have better things to spend our money on, so I dont have cleaning help. Dh and kids dont help much. My preteens come to the table for breakfast most days to find their dinner plates still there. I refuse to clean it up. My house stinks. Most days I wonder why I work! My quality of life definitely went downhill.

Cleaning help would definitely help me not want to quit.

amother

Rose

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 9:11 pm

amother wrote:

See, the issue here is not lack of cleaning help but lack of communication and cooperation among family members. Even if you had cleaning help the problem would remain.

amother

Purple

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 9:17 pm

Is indoor plumbing a luxury? I'm sure that back then when some had and others didn't this same debate might have taken place. Now days when everyone has indoor plumbing it's obviously not a luxury.
Same thing with cleaning help. If you grew up like I did with cleaning help and have always had it, it becomes a necessity. My in laws who hardly ever had cleaning help? Luxury.

RebekahsMom

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 9:40 pm

Luxury. My husband is out over 10 hrs a day. I’m out over 7. I have 2 kids, both are perfectly capable of scrubbing a toilet, washing a dish, and doing their own laundry (the folding isn’t the greatest, but they’re learning), and vacuum.

My brother has 3 kids. Even the 4 yr old carries his folded clothes upstairs.

And the reason that all 5 kids do chores is because they all understand that if they don’t work, they don’t have fun. You don’t want to clean your room all week? Fine. You know your cousins are at the park today, right? Ohhhh.... you can’t go. You never finished your room. I took just 1 kid out once. NEVER had that problem again. I’ve always wondered why people with 7 kids don’t think “hey, I have more helpers around the house!”

So yeah.... luxury. I would sacrifice a lot to have someone scrub my entire bathroom just once. But if you raise the kids that the house is a community and everyone has a part, you don’t really need help.

amother

Mint

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 9:44 pm

amother wrote:

if the options are necessity vs luxury - indoor plumbing falls into luxury category. In 2017 its a standard luxury in "first world" countries.

amother

Navy

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 9:47 pm

amother wrote:

I grew up with full time cleaning help, and it was a given that I never thought twice about. And my mother didn't work, or worked very part-time when we were in school. And my father helped a lot, though he did work long hours. And our family was not that big or close in age.

I had never done any real cleaning when I got married (though I did cook, do laundry, and help keep the house neat - like put things away but not actually clean things). But it didn't even cross my mind to get cleaning help when I got married. The only time I have ever had steady cleaning help (read: 4 hours per week) was for a couple months when I was on semi-bedrest in one my pregnancies, and for a few weeks after that baby was born. Now I am a single mom and still have zero cleaning help.

So growing up with cleaning help doesn't necessarily make someone view it as a necessity.

RebekahsMom

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 9:49 pm

amother wrote:

Dh feels like we have better things to spend our money on, so I dont have cleaning help. Dh and kids dont help much. My preteens come to the table for breakfast most days to find their dinner plates still there. I refuse to clean it up. My house stinks. Most days I wonder why I work! My quality of life definitely went downhill.

Cleaning help would definitely help me not want to quit.

I’ve had that problem. But I’m a big meanie! The rule is 1 plate per person at the dinner table. And if last night’s is still there, then tonight’s won’t be put down. We recently had an issue where we announced “the forks are all dirty, someone needs to wash some”. No one moved. So, I washed one each for myself and my husband, and sat down. The kids eventually went to the sink, washed them, and remembered after dinner to load them in the dishwasher so they don’t go through this tomorrow.

As a tip, if clothing is the issue, make sure you remove their dirty clothes from the room so that they run out and have to do wash instead of wearing the same pair of socks for the 4th time. (I say that from experience. Ewwww...)

mommy3b2c

Thu, Nov 02 2017, 9:53 pm

RebekahsMom wrote:

I think I would have a nervous breakdown if my son wore his socks 4 days in a row