Couples Meals | Imamother

amother

Aqua

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 1:28 pm

Boca00 wrote:

Do you not use any safeguards? Capping medicine bottles, locking your safe, putting a baby gate up or stowing dangerous chemicals on a high shelf?

It's ok to have these things around as long as you take the appropriate safety measures.

Check the statistics of affairs, and you'll see why it is good to take some precautionary measures.

I can't speak for chassidim, but no yeshivish people I know completely segregate men and women. Like I said, I work with men. I call men and even eat meals with men. But with boundaries in place. I think everybody agrees there should be some "fences" in place, but the different communities just draw the line in different places.

Yes, of course I cap medicine bottles and lock dangerous chemicals away. But I don't keep my baby out of the bathroom or kitchen because there are chemicals / medicine bottles around.

The Torah provides us with the tools and guidelines how to behave in situations, that is equivalent to locking the chemicals away. The Torah doesn't command us to stay out of the kitchen or bathroom - equivalent to setting up boundary upon boundary and stringency upon stringency to avoid normal human situations.

Boca00

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 1:31 pm

Ok that's good. Smile

Like I said, I think the communities differ on how much safeguards are too much. I am sure some people will feel that you are being too segregated and some will feel that you are not segregated enough.

Everyone has their own normal and their own ideas of what is the proper amount of interaction between the genders.

amother

Aqua

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 1:34 pm

Boca00 wrote:

I can't speak for chassidim, but no yeshivish people I know completely segregate men and women. Like I said, I work with men. I call men and even eat meals with men. But with boundaries in place. I think everybody agrees there should be some "fences" in place, but the different communities just draw the line in different places.

Of course there should be fences - that is one of the Torah guidelines. That's not what I've been talking about. I'm talking about when you say the situation should not be allowed to happen, I.e. couples not eating together.

Couples eating and spending time together is a beautiful thing, within the proper boundaries of course. Its when you set so many boundaries (above and beyond what the Torah requires), that this normal human activity is either stilted or completely avoided.

Boca00

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 1:36 pm

amother wrote:

Ok, so we agree. I think.

amother

Aqua

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 1:42 pm

Boca00 wrote:

Ok that's good. Smile

Yes, but not everyone's normal is beneficial or the way the Torah commanded. Locking oneself away only stifles growth. It doesn't encourage working on oneself, or learning how to better yourself.

If I lock myself in a windowless room, with no phones, computer and means of communication, does that mean I have overcome the urge to speak Lashon Hora? All it means I have had no opportunity to do so. But if I circulate among others and hold my tongue and don't spread any gossip, I have made myself a better person.

Of course, there are 'risks' involved with being out there in the community. But while risks put forth the chance of failure, it holds more of a chance of success (because the pain of failure will encourage further attempts). Without risks there is no growth or success.

imasoftov

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 1:46 pm

Boca00 wrote:

I recently heard from a friend that some couples don't because it is setting yourself up for an unfair comparison. Your husband gets to know this other woman and only see the good parts of her, while he knows your good and not-so-good moments. And vice versa. I never had heard that reasoning before.

I've heard that here before. I'm curious if there's a halachic source where that reason is given.

Boca00

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 2:06 pm

amother wrote:

True. But show me one group that isolates themselves from men to the extent of locking themselves up in their room so they don't see any men.

amother

Aqua

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 2:14 pm

Boca00 wrote:

True. But show me one group that isolates themselves from men to the extent of locking themselves up in their room so they don't see any men.

Its a metaphor, not a direct application. Isolating oneself in a room to avoid all human conversation (to avoid lashon hora) is equivalent to avoiding all human interactions with men (to avoid any chance of impropriety).

Boca00

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 2:20 pm

amother wrote:

Agreed. But "avoiding all human interactions with men'' is extremely different than working with men on a day-to-day basis but calling them Mr. Klein or Mr. Katzenellenbogen. It would mean staying home all day, not even venturing out to buy milk or borrow sugar.

So just like you (I hope) wouldn't be secluded in some guy's hotel room or give them a friendly kiss when you see them, other communities will refer to each other by Mr. or Mrs. and may only eat out by family (we don't do that but just saying). That's not avoiding human interactions, that's just drawing the line in a different place.

NewbeeMom

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 2:21 pm

Think about a time that you were not able to look so pretty (I.e. 'm' night on friday night)....
Now imagine that you invited over a couple and the wife is dressed to the nines, all made up, stunning sheitel, heels and all... Don't you think your dh will have a little bit of a hard time with that?

It doesn't need to be such a dramatic contrast, even if you just had a rushed friday and you didn't get to apply a full face of makeup, the last thing you need is for the wife of the couple your eating with to look perfect.

So, no, I've never done couple meals. And honestly, it's safer that way.

shabbatiscoming

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 2:28 pm

NewbeeMom wrote:

Maybe this is mean to say, but this is truly how I feel. If you will have trouble in your marriage because a guest might look prettier than you and you are nervous about that, I think you have more troubles in your marriage than inviting guests over. I never really thought about what my female guests look like. If one's husband works in the outside secular world, he is going to see women who very well may be prettier than you (general you). Just because one has a guest over and the wife is pretty, does not mean there will be issues with the husband. Life doesnt work that way.

NewbeeMom

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 2:31 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

If one's husband works in the outside secular world, he is going to see women who very well may be prettier than you (general you). Just because one has a guest over and the wife is pretty, does not mean there will be issues with the husband. Life doesnt work that way.

I guess dh is more sheltered than that. He's still in kollel and doesn't bump into women so often. Frankly, I dont think that this is an indication of troubles in a marriage.
It's just that men are attracted to beauty. And I believe that the best is, if ones husband doesn't see his wife in contrast to someone else's wife's beauty.

amother

Aqua

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 2:33 pm

Boca00 wrote:

I'm not being literal here, I'm being figurative. Locking oneself away in room and not communicating with anyone ever is also not done and will never be done. I'm just using these extreme examples to bring out a point. My point is that certain boundaries are overdoing it and stifling growth. Drawing the line in different places doesn't mean that all of them are ok. Some lines are absolutely needed, some lines are superfluous and some lines are obstructive to our internal growth.

Notsobusy

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 2:33 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Her husband doesn't even have to work in the secular world, he can see prettier women just walking down the street. It's sad when people are brainwashed into thinking that just seeing a prettier or better dressed woman will destroy their marriage.

I understand having gedarim, I work in a primarily frum office and we use Mr and Mrs. It bothers me, but I go along with it. But I don't think if I start calling my coworker by his first name it we will end up in bed together.

amother

Aqua

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 2:37 pm

NewbeeMom wrote:

And does this insecurity not indicate a level of distrust or discomfort in a marriage?

amother

White

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 2:37 pm

Not followed the whole thread, but we followed the guidelines set out by our Rebbeim and generally did not mix with other couples unless family in shana rishona. Once we had a kid or two, we were less strict about this, but to this day (married 6 years) we are not so into "socialising" and invite family/people who need an invitation first. This mindset might be difficult for others to understand, but in the yeshivish world (especially in EY) this is simply an extension of the segregation that exists between male and female. For couples used to mechitzos pretty much everywhere, sitting at a shabbos table with somebody else's spouse can feel pretty intimate. Call it a cultural thing, call it a barrier or whatever you want. BH opportunities abound for socialising without this kind of entertaining, and neither myself , nor any of my friends "lost out" due to this.

NewbeeMom

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 2:39 pm

Notsobusy wrote:

I understand having gedarim, I work in a primarily frum office and we use Mr and Mrs. It bothers me, but I go along with it. But I don't think if I start calling my coworker by his first name it we will end up in bed together.

Perhaps you don't understand the ramifications of calling people by their first names. At work, my boss always tells me to address clients by their first names. He says that it makes them feel like you are on their side... There is a lot of phsychology behind calling someone by a first name. Proven and all.

NewbeeMom

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 2:40 pm

amother wrote:

I couldn't agree more!
You put it down really well:)

amother

White

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 2:44 pm

NewbeeMom wrote:

I couldn't agree more!
You put it down really well:)

I find it interesting how people get so heated up others about not inviting other couples. It seems to me that sub consciously not everyone doing the entertaining is so at ease with it. Anyway, nice to know I'm not the only one.

amother

Aqua

Sun, Nov 05 2017, 2:46 pm

amother wrote:

But you have lost out. You have lost out on the opportunity to develop and grow a better self. Hashem didn't command us to avoid the other gender (except for Yichud), the Torah actually gives us guidelines how to behave around the other gender. Not learning how to do just that, stifles your internal growth. It says - "I'm not strong enough to do what the Torah says, to work on myself, rise above challenges, so I'll just insert fences and blockades to ensure that I don't transgress."