Are there an equal percentage of "Frum" Zexual Perverts?

amother

Lemon

Sat, Nov 25 2017, 9:49 pm

amother wrote:

Honestly, yes. I can't even tell you the amount of people I know that have cheated. It's well hidden but it happens a lot. I know a couple of divorced people who told me that their ex did and their ex knew others who had. I heard it directly from people who cheated themselves, giving all sorts of reasons for their bad sx life and halachic issues (like only cheating when wife had extended nidda for months). Don't be naive.

I am one of those stories. There are loads of frum people telling each other than I had an affair. I didn't.

amother wrote:

The question is whether we have more se*ual perversion, and to answer that, data would have to be taken over many years, and percentages compared.

Ask your friends if they know anyone who had an affair. Chances are they will drop my name if they live in my community. Some evil person started the rumor several years ago. I never had an affair. There are sick people in every generation whose sole purpose in life is to destroy other people. That's where your study is flawed.

amother

Cerise

Sat, Nov 25 2017, 10:02 pm

I am still baffled that people think our numbers are as high as secular ppl. I am not naive and I know it happens but I cannot wrap my head around the fact that people believe 1 out of every 3 men in my yeshivish, RW community is a cheater.

As was mentioned many times, with the absence of actual data it is rly just a senseless argument of who you know and what you believe to be true vs what I believe.

But please do not believe that what is true in your circles and community is true throughout the orthodox world.

As previousl posters mentioned, different secular societies and cultures will have different statistics in this area.

Is it so difficult for you to believe that that holds true by Jews as well???

33055

Sat, Nov 25 2017, 10:22 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Im sorry but you say that when you were 11 they were talking about getting to 3rd base. Well, thats also specific to some communities as well and not others. I grew up MO and never heard of such talk ever.
Also, your first sentence, no offense, but what the heck do you think happens at a kiddsh or in MO communities? There arent 2ex parties in the middle of the childen's parks. We are good moral people who are acting just as halachic as the next. I dont get your questions or insinuation, really.

My "insinuation" is that when you have mixed socializing, you already pierced the bubble. MO is a different world. You experiences are not valid for the world I am describing.

Our children will never see mom and dad in a mixed social situation. If you don't talk to men in the first place, you can't engage in affairs.

If the adolescents aren't mixing, then premarital zex is not as prevalent. It is just that simple.

Many of your statements on this thread show you are naive about the state of things in the insulated community.

Mommyg8

Sat, Nov 25 2017, 11:12 pm

amother wrote:

There are rules in the secular world too! No cheating on your spouse is a big one. Frum marriages don't have a monopoly on that one.

Honestly, this conversation can only go around in circles. You say yes, I say no. You say yes, I say no. There is no hard data, so this is something that anyone can make up whatever they want.

But the rule of not cheating on your spouse in the secular world - you're kidding, right? Is this the 40% of adults who are actually married? Because all of them cheat. Both men and women.

I've worked with frum people and not frum people. The frum men, and I'm including MO men in this analysis, don't have casual friendships with women, they don't spend "alone" time with women, and there is no casual touch, either. This is not the case with the non-Jewish men and women, who, while they do have certain lines, supposedly, those lines are so fluid that you'd have to have extreme self control not to cross any of those lines, considering some of the situations they might find themselves in.

Look, anyone can believe anything they want. You can tell yourself that the laws of shomer negiah and shemiras ainayim and yichud don't protect us - you can make up any story you want, inside your head. But those of us who are living the real world know that these stories are just fairy tales. Our lifestyle does protect us. It just does.

I applaud Squishy for fearlessly stating the truth - that everything about our lives just makes us better people. We are definitely more moral. We just are.

Mommyg8

Sat, Nov 25 2017, 11:26 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Yes, yes and yes. I KNOW of all these things.
I am not idiot. I myself have been se*ually abused, and the frum community tried to shut it up. I'm not some naive yeshivish young mom living her life out in Israel on a kollel paycheck with some semianry dreams. I've been through a hell lot of stuff, and I'm the ones usually telling my friends not to be naive.

Like I said at least 5 times and I'll say it again. I do think it exists, I just think the rate is less, if even by one percent or five.

LovesHashem, I am sorry, but I just disagree with you. It's not 1% less, it's a huge percentage less.

I'm willing to bet any amount of money that if you were to do a paternity test on 100 non-Jewish kids, and 100 frum kids (MO included), you will find a much higher percentage of "surprises" in the non-Jewish kids.

And how can you even compare what is going on in the Catholic church to what is going on in our own communities (lehavdil)?

And as for those that say that everyone is really cheating, but I'm just naive - I'm really curious how all these huge percentage of people who are supposedly cheating, in my community, are able to hush this up so well that I don't even hear a word?

They're all going to harlots? And they're all cheating in other ways? What about the women? Are they cheating as well? Because statistically, in the non-Jewish world, women are just as likely to cheat as men. Are these statistics real for us as well? Did one out of three imamothers cheat at one point in their lives? What do you think?

And how are all my friends' husbands able to hide this SO well from their wives? Their friends? And no-one knows? Really?

naturalmom5

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 12:11 am

Squishy wrote:

And Mary was a virgin...

amother

Linen

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 12:20 am

I grew up secular, in a mainly non Jewish community. Some couples were sleeping together but most of us were 'lucky' if we even got to kiss a boy by the time we graduated. Not everything you see on movies or the news reflects what is happening out there (this was 25 yrs ago though).

Mommygr8 I agree with you frum women probably cheat much much less than secular women, because of nidda and all the tzniyut talk they get. I don't think the numbers are significantly less for men. Maybe one in four rather than one in three (talking about Monsey or Lakewood here, not left wing MO).

Everyone is right though, and this is just my hunch based on knowing people and reading the papers. None of us can back anything up.

I also think frum women are more willing to forgive a cheater than secular women, who will often choose divorce. How many times have you read here about women struggling to understand their s@x addict dh and doing everything to make it work.

amother

Amber

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 12:23 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I'd applaud Squishy too, if not for the second chassidishe couple who are swingers who just moved into my community.

The second. chassidishe. couple.

I learned about the first ones when I was invited to participate, being the pants wearing divorcee that I am.

Of course you want to believe that your lifestyle protects you. But that's all it is- a defense mechanism to make yourself feel better. It's not true.

Mommyg8

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 12:30 am

amother wrote:

The plural of anecdote is not data.

You know two couples. I also know two couples - out of a few thousand couples that I happen to know.

Like I said, you just can't argue this, as there is no data either way.

Mommyg8

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 12:36 am

amother wrote:

I'm not sure what growing up secular has to do with this - and I don't watch movies or see the news. I'm working with people. Real people. That's where my data is coming from.

And, I'm completely not sure what niddah has to do with anything - if you're already sleeping with someone who is not your husband, does it matter if you're a niddah????

And Lakewood, where I live, is very definitely not one out of four. We live close together, and we would know.

As for a frum woman willing to forgive a cheater - again, where's your data? I wouldn't, neither would any of my friends, as far as I know... And a s*x addict in the frum community, would be considered "normal" in the outside community. I'm talking about p*rn addiction, which is what they are usually talking about. How would you even define p*rn addiction in the secular world?

I think it's so funny that people think that the entire s*x industry is being supported by Chassidim and RW frum Jews... No, not.

amother

Amber

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 12:51 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

your entire argument in this thread are all anecdotal

And I don't know a few thousand couples. I don't even know a few thousand people. Rolling Eyes

So I guess you are just more knowledgeable than me. LOL

marina

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 12:55 am

Quote:

And a s*x addict in the frum community, would be considered "normal" in the outside community. I'm talking about p*rn addiction, which is what they are usually talking about. How would you even define p*rn addiction in the secular world?

You're just not even bothering to use google. Google what you're writing about before you post gibberish. The frum world didn't coin the term [filth] addiction. Rolling Eyes

Mommyg8

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 1:06 am

marina wrote:

Quote:

You're just not even bothering to use google. Google what you're writing about before you post gibberish. The frum world didn't coin the term [filth] addiction. Rolling Eyes

I don't need google to know what addiction is (I learned this in college, actually). Addiction is when it impacts your life in a significant way. For a frum man watching [filth] once a day would impact his life in a significant way, for a non-frum man, not.

Why do you think I am spouting gibberish - I think that it's you who is spouting gibberish, at least in this context.

Mommyg8

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 1:09 am

amother wrote:

So your anecdotes of real people is data, but mine are just anecdotes? How does this work?

No, no, no. Please don't put words into my mouth. My response about real people was in response to someone saying that I am getting my information from TV shows and movies, and as I have watched a grand total of two movies in my life, and very few TV shows, it is doubtful my information would come from there.

We are just spouting gibberish, to quote marina. Nobody has statistics either way. You say you have anecdotal evidence, I say I have anecdotal evidence.

We are back to my original sentence, I say no, you say yes, I say no, you say yes.

What

amother

Copper

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 1:11 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

You actually are completely misinformed about the nature and definitions of s-x and [filth] addiction. Just so you know, diagnosis does not make a distinction based on ones religion. There are specific criteria that must be met, just like any other mental illness.

Mommyg8

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 1:14 am

amother wrote:

You are spouting absolute gibberish. Diagnosis is absolutely dependent on how it impacts your life. I am unfortunately not misinformed at all. I know all about addiction.

Try playing this game with someone else.

amother

Navy

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 1:19 am

amother wrote:

This. To be clear, [filth] exposure is pretty much standard out there from a pretty young age, but there is a huge difference between exposure and addiction.

amother

Copper

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 1:24 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Huh????
Okay....a frum man looking at [filth] 1x a day....you are saying he MUST be an addict? Because? It is affecting his life how?

Mommyg8

Sun, Nov 26 2017, 1:25 am

amother wrote:

This. To be clear, [filth] exposure is pretty much standard out there from a pretty young age, but there is a huge difference between exposure and addiction.

Again, a diagnosis of addiction would depend on how it impacts your life. I said this somewhere else, and I'll say it here, again - what would be the motivation for a non-Jewish man to go for therapy, or even to get a diagnosis?

And, for those who are reading this and think that the criteria for mental illness is always clear, open and shut - whoever has experience in this area knows that the criteria is always very murky and gray - I am not talking about s*x addiction, specifically, this is an issue all across the board. Anyone who has experience with mental illness knows this is true.

And anyway, what makes you think that this kind of addiction is more prevalent in the frum world? Again, no statistics.

And I honestly don't know think that p*rn addiction would fall into the same category as an affair. It's a completely different kettle of fish, which is why you can't use all these posts as proof of anything.