Are there an equal percentage of "Frum" Zexual Perverts?

flowerpower

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 11:21 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Do you think only jewish people teach their children morals and build up their kids? Puleezzeeee. Not even close.
I think you are extremely naive and Im going to leave it at that. Im not going to go back and forth. I completely disagree with you. And I almost feel bad for you because it is not like you are saying. And religion is not the only moral compass out there.

All I can say is, being that I live next to a public high school.... the behavior of the teenagers there are horrible. Doing drugs right next to my preschooler, mocking the cops ( who try to make order), doing some "gross bedroom stuff" on the street, trying to steal bikes, running on the street while yelling.... and much more. I see it every day. So call the other poster naive or whatever. But our families and schools do try to teach morals and values to the children. Of course jews are not immune to bad behavior. But we do try.

amother

Goldenrod

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 11:23 am

amother wrote:

I mean, what's the point of the wife doing all the taharat hamishpacha schpiel if just as many men cheat?

From the people that I know that cheated, it was usually during the 2 weeks if nidda. They weren't going out with another girl on wife's mikva night. And yes the poor clueless wife is going through all the bedikas and mikva and dutifully waiting to be with her husband.

rainbow dash

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 11:32 am

Hello, there is always someone posting on Facebook recent videos of boys and men trying to s_xually assault girls, in the buildings etc. They are filmed by security cameras. Sorry but unfortunately these things are all over the world, in every community now and in the past. Sorry to burst your naive bubble. And to say in a previous post that there is no opioid epidemic is ludicrous. How many people have killed themselves in the last few years? So many kids are on drugs.

rainbow dash

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 11:33 am

amother wrote:

simba

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 11:37 am

Frum and non frum and non Jewish and other religions and and and....humans in all circles have this challenge. Do more frum people overcome it due to torah refinement? We may never know the numbers due to the hushing of the issue in our communities. Otoh, look at Hollywood today and the hush that went on for years about this issue.

I don't think the suppression of s-xuality until marraige makes for more perverts. I would dare to say the opposite, the gross overexposure in the outside world blurs all lines of what is appropriate and is a breeding pool for perverts.

flowerpower

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 11:38 am

simba wrote:

👍

amother

Oak

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 11:39 am

tichellady wrote:

I don’t actually know, but I think yes. I really don’t understand why Gd tempts people to desire children.

Because if He didn’t, the word wouldn’t continue.
And on that note, if you go back even a few hundred years, average lifespan was probably only 30 years. Enough time to marry once you became a young teen, have a few kids, and die long before you acted on the temptation (which doesn’t mean it didn’t happen even then).

LovesHashem

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 11:44 am

rainbow dash wrote:

Of course! But all I'm saying is think the rate is less, if even by 1 percent, or 3 percent. I beleive it's less a percentage than the outside world.

amother

Honeydew

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 11:48 am

Mevater wrote:

Ha! In the last few years Ive become aware of so many FRUM male sickos, who Id never believe a word about, had it not become pubilc knowledge, I just dont think thats accurate.

You're the OP.
I don't understand why you asked the initial question if you feel you know the answer - read your post here?!

What's the goal that you're trying to get at???

RebekahsMom

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 11:53 am

Squishy wrote:

I believe more in the frum communities because of my personal experience. I think there are strange boundary issues because of the segregation of the genders. Men often don't know how to relate properly to ladies.

When I was a young woman working for a frum guy in Brooklyn, the frum married men used to hit on me constantly. The gentiles were respectful and knew normal office etiquette. I wouldn't meet with frum customers without an older secretary right in the room. They couldn't understand that working with a woman is not an invitation. I think because they had no normal exchanges with woman, this caused the problems. This scared me off marriage for years.

While it is not actual zexual perversion, it would belong in the me too campaign if I wanted to trivialize actual victims.

This! And I agree with the reasoning! When you grow up around the opposite relations, you are taught about acceptable behavior (not that people follow it). When everyone hangs out in a group, they can be comfortable with each other without it “leading somewhere”. zxual harassment is a huge no-no in the secular world- you could easily get suspended/ fired for saying the wrong thing.

Also, there is not as much desire to randomly flirt, because frum women hold themselves to a higher standard (SN/ tznius), and are seen as off limits to the men, where the frum men would never flirt with a secular woman because a> they’re secular, and b> theyre “harder to catch”.

I also think that since men and women have a chance to date/ play the field more, they get to see what they enjoy before a few supervised dates and ending up with someone that they hope is their fit.

I believe there are more issues with p0rn in the secular world. But they view it as a release, and not a sin.

amother

Navy

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 11:55 am

amother wrote:

I read the original comment "desires children" as in "attracted to children."

amother

Oak

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 12:37 pm

FranticFrummie wrote:

Some people just can't handle the truth. There's a willful sort of ignorance and lack of imagination going on, compounded with a large dose of wishful thinking.

DH was never molested in yeshiva. He doesn't recall seeing anyone else get molested. Therefore, he insists that it has never happened in any yeshiva, ever. He thinks that "people invent those stories to fill up anti-frum blogs."

He also thinks that girls invent stories in order to punish the rav at their school, etc. Whenever these stories come up, he instantly takes the side of the accused, and is highly critical of the accuser.

He thinks that a man who cheats is like a unicorn. "Sure, it could happen, but it's so RARE!" Rolling Eyes

I spoke to someone who taught in Hillel once. She said that police had stepped in to arrest a rav that they had proven was an abuser, but men there would not let the police get to him because “he is a religious man, they must wait until he’s done davening before they talk to him.”

It was so ironic- he’s religious but still a milestone.

I think a big difference, as others have said, is that in the secular world an abuser is arrested as soon as they’re discovered, but here the council decides that they can get therapy, get transferred to another area if they promise it will stop.

The community is so quick to back their Rav, even at the risk of destroying the family that speaks up about the abuse. Religious men simply don’t do that! So the family leaves the community, no schools accept the kids, who end up OTD, all because no one is willing to face the truth. My heart bleeds for these children.

amother

Oak

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 12:44 pm

amother wrote:

I read the original comment "desires children" as in "attracted to children."

Ewwww... I didn’t think of it like that! I assumed she meant people having a natural sx drive, and wanting to hit on women.

But reading it like that? I have no words.

33055

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 3:19 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

First of all, when I say every single thing bad, I was saying in general. Second of all, just because you dont have those specific things by you does not in any way mean that other jewish communities dont have them. You really think there are no children being born out of wedlock? Think again. Drugs? That is in way more places than you might want to think. And boys might not be walking around with their undies showing, but there are many many many girls, frum, out there, dressing in less than wonderful ways. It definitely happens.
You think the non jewish world doesnt also have places for teens or that non jews dont provide for the sick and needy? You must be living in a bubble then. There are so many no jewish organizations that do those things. And again, no offense, but just because YOU personlly dont know any homeless person does not mean there are no jewish ones out there. Thats a very naive thing to say (gosh, come to Israel, slightly jewish place :/, many homeless people here)
Jews dont have a monopoly on safety and security. Not by far.

I can't speak for any other frum community than the ones I know. There are Jewish communities that have issues but they are not the real frum communities

I really do believe there are almost no frum Jewish children in Monsey being born out of wedlock. I know one who became non-frum who had an out of wedlock baby. She moved back in with her parents. I don't know of any others. When you think of the black population having almost 3 out 4 babies out of wedlock, being able to point to only one is nice.

Jewish marriages are stronger as a whole than secular marriages.

The girls that dress in less wonderful ways may only wear tight skirts about the knees. They are not wearing skirts skating their panties. They are wearing g string jeans ending below their body suits. There are no halter tops, nor are there g strings showing above their waistband. Underwear is inside clothes. Even the wild girls are far more modest than secular girls.

The outside world absolutely doesn't take care of their problems the way we do. You are seriously out of touch of you think so. We don't have the pathology that leads to girls working for pimps. Our children are not being picked up at the port authority. Extended families and being raised by a village ensures this.

There are no homeless persons in Monsey. There are no filthy people begging on the streets, nor are there unsafe shelters. I know quite a few families in desperate situations who were given free housing.

Jewish people are very tzeduicah minded. The UJA is able to support some of programs you mention because we give more than the community requires.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 3:37 pm

Squishy wrote:

Squishy, the big jewish world extends WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY beyond monssey new york. No offense but there are so many variations on frum jewish life. It is not only what goes on in charedi life in monsey. I assure you that to be 100% true.

Now, lets see about your examples:
No wedlock mother in monsey? Very well might not be, that still doesnt mean it is not happening in the FRUM world at large.
And no offense, but why did you single out the black population with this? Do you have research or sources to back that up? Rolling Eyes

Where would you have information that frum marriages are stronger as a whole than secular marriages? Im sorry but that is the silliest thing I ever heard. What in the world are you basing that on? Again, I feel like you are pulling things out of a hat. I know many secular couples, jewish and not, that have extremely strong marriages. I think what you are writing is complete silliness and not true at all.
If you think that there are no frum girls out there that dont wear anything "worse" than a tight skirt above the knee, then you dont get out much. Ive seen it all, and from orthodox families, not just tight and above the knee.
Your every day non jew or not religious person is also not leading girls to working for pimps. That happens when something obviously goes wrong, not your every day run of the mill sara smith.
And you think only frum people have extended families? (seriously scratching my head deeply now)
I thnk it is you who is completely out of touch, out of touch with what the big bad world is like outside of your monsey bubble. And its a big world out there. Get to know it. There are so many DIFFERENT types of FRUM jews out there.

amother

Cerise

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 4:30 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Um, obviously Squishy is referring to the typical, frum community who adheres to strict Halacha and all the rabbinic gedarim so many other communities are so quick to pinpoint as "ridiculous" and "extreme."

I'm the poster who said claiming that affairs occur with equal frequency in the frum and secular world is preposterous and I stand by what I said.

No, I am not naive. Yes, I know we have our fair share of perverts and sickos and I know several people who've had affairs. Several. Out of hundreds of friends family neighbors etc. Yes, there might be more I don't know about cuz they're kept under wraps but honestly, how many do you think there are like that???

In the secular world, to go from acquaintance to secret lover, there are just a few lines, such as innate morality (if it indeed exists) and loyalty to a spouse. How can that even compare to a frum guy who barely says hello to women? When a religious person wants to cheat, they have to cross lines like extreme social awkwardness, frumkeit, fear of heaven, community backlash, possibly ending a marriage and losing their kids, not to mention doozies like kareis and being forbidden to ones husband.

Of course without actual data there is no way to prove who is right. But just google the statistics on marital affairs and you'll get numbers like 45-60% or 1 out of every 2.7 marriages.

Are you still going to tell me the frum world has a similar rate????

If so, then sorry, but you are the one who is being small minded and naive.

rainbow dash

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 4:36 pm

www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premi.....7BB60

mommy3b2c

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 4:41 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

yes, I really do. why do people think that just because we are jews that means that we dont have every single bad thing in our communities. Also, the majority of non jews are good law abiding moral people. We as jews do not have the sole ownership on being moral people. And there are many jews who are anything but moral.

Disagree. Of course there is cheating an infidelity in the frum world, but the percentage is lower. I can think of many reasons for this.

rainbow dash

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 4:43 pm

Opinion #MeToo in Israel's ultra-Orthodox World
Sharing these stories of rape and s-xual molestation in Haredi circles is to help all the other victims, so that they know they are not alone or to blame

“The guy who attacked me s-xually a number of times when I was 11 years old is a married ultra-Orthodox man. I was dressed with extreme modesty. After my bat mitzvah I visited them on Shabbat, and he asked his wife to go to bed and leave me with him. She shouted, ‘She’s a bat mitzvah! You can’t touch her anymore!’

“And why is it impossible to tell and to complain? Ninth-grade girls in a Bais Yaakov school can answer that. The homeroom teacher told them about a student who was attacked in the street and stayed home for a few days to recover. She went to visit her and told her, ‘It’s your fault!’ The student defended herself, after all she observes all the rules and wears very thick stockings. The teacher answered her, ‘Yes, but there’s something about you!’”

That’s what Racheli Bass, a married ultra-Orthodox woman and mother of three who provides emotional therapy and assistance to victims of s-xual assault, writes me.

Not everyone is as courageous as Racheli, who agreed to reveal her horrible story. Women I turned to, who I knew had been attacked, said that it’s better to keep quiet, that they aren’t emotionally prepared for exposure. But here are a few real stories and statements – in some the identifying details have been changed at the request of the victims to preserve their safety and privacy – in response to an op-ed by Israel Cohen (“Learn from the ultra-Orthodox how to stop s-xual harassment,” Haaretz.com, November 14) that denies the injustices, s-xual attacks and harassment in Haredi society, and extols the policy of separation to prevent such behavior.

“I remember my male teacher welcoming me every morning with a blessing and placing his freezing hands inside my sweater and feeling me up, holding me close to him.” (Y., a male graduate of an ultra-Orthodox elementary school and yeshivas)

“I was sitting with an older Hasidic client, who had invited me to advise him about interior design for a new store. He examined me closely and began to ask questions, he misinterpreted my pleasantness: “Do you think I’m good-looking? Isn’t it true that you would like to be with me?” I smiled like an idiot and blushed. Needless to say I didn’t get the job and I didn’t bother to ask for explanations. When my husband tried to understand why, I explained to him that the price I suggested was too expensive for him.” (R., an architect)

“Yesterday I had a conversation with my little sister. She told me about the rape of a friend of hers. An ultra-Orthodox man dragged her behind a truck and raped her, and she didn’t dare to shout because she didn’t know exactly what was happening to her, what he was doing, and mainly she was afraid that if she shouted other people would come and ‘see her’ [body]. She didn’t know what to shout. How can a naïve seminary girl know how to deal with something that has no name? My sister told me about other instances of harassment, men who exposed themselves in front of girls, who didn’t know what the men were doing and why, and what to do about it.” (Natalie Rosenblum)

“I experienced a s-xual attack in the family, which continued for years due to the habit of silence and the fact that the family ignored clear signs. When I recently heard about other attacks by the same man, I turned to the police. Rabbis told the complainants to testify, but later changed their minds so that he wouldn’t sit in prison for too long. Complainants were harassed. I was compared to a Nazi and to ISIS, and part of the family is still not speaking to me. At the start of my career I was s-xually attacked several times in ultra-Orthodox places of work. I fled at the last moment from an attack by the founder of large charitable organizations in Jerusalem, who after the fact said that it was my fault because I fixed up my hair before leaving work.” (Shifra from Bnei Brak, a seminary graduate)

In the Facebook group I run, “Haredi Feminism,” Cohen’s article aroused a storm. Here are some of the reactions: “There are many reasons why Haredi women didn’t participate in the #MeToo campaign. Not because of what Cohen writes and not because the separated society helps to prevent s-xual harassment and assault. The article is infuriating mainly because the Haredi media don’t report on the campaign at all and don’t offer the platform that the secular media gave the complainants. If anything brings on the flood of the Haredi ‘#Me too,’ and it will be a flood of sewage, it will be articles like Cohen’s.” (A.R.)

“Forget the exclusion that Cohen whitewashes so much in the article. But where’s the component of the victims, mainly among yeshiva students, despite and maybe even because of the separation?” (Chavi Blustein, a counselor for brides and married life)

All these are a miniscule sampling of authentic voices from among the public. All these quotes weren’t brought out to prove how sick Haredi society is, since the international #MeToo campaign exposes a human sickness that crosses cultures, ideologies and classes. These stories and quotes are being made public so that Saraleh and Yehuda and Chaimkeh and Menucha and Itamar and Yisrael Meir and Shira and Bracha will feel that they’re not alone and they’re not to blame.

In recent years organizations have begun to work inside the Haredi community, bringing the voices of the male and female victims to public awareness, and they are doing important work. In the Haredi media (the digital media only) they have started to discuss the subject, but for the most part the thundering silence, the fear, the embarrassment and the guilt prevail and reverberate. This has to be lifted, and those who deny the pain and suffering of the victims have to be confronted.

The writer is the founder and co-executive director of the organization Nivharot (Chosen) – Haredi women for representation, equality and a voice.

Last edited by rainbow dash on Thu, Nov 23 2017, 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Red

Thu, Nov 23 2017, 4:43 pm

rainbow dash wrote:

www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.824204?v=65F9954915124F074709786B5937BB60

I can't read it without a subscription. Would you be able to post the article, or a link that doesn't require a subscription?