Are there an equal percentage of "Frum" Zexual Perverts?

amother

Goldenrod

Fri, Nov 24 2017, 12:32 am

amother wrote:

Even if some are absolute secrets, are you still saying that a spouse in 1 out of every 3 right wing couples has had or is having an affair??

Yes, definitely. From the people I know.
I am divorced and spoke to a divorced man who cheated on his wife. He had an entire group of friends and knew a lot of other people who cheat on their wives. Women are clueless. The husband travels for work or goes on vacation and these naive wives believe nothing goes on. I know some of the wives. They think their husbands are going away with friends for a shabbos when they're hooking up with other girls.

It is much more prevalent than you realize. I can't even tell you how many friends I personally know who have been cheated on and how many people I know who cheated.

The internet has allowed for much easier access and anonymity to find girls to meet. And unfortunately many men do stumble.

If you think it's 1 in 100 or 1 in 20 then you are just not aware. Men openly talk about women they want to be with to their friends. Things slip.

If your husband travels for work or works late, I'm not saying to be paranoid. But don't be naive.

amother

Linen

Fri, Nov 24 2017, 2:07 am

I do not for a moment believe that men in Monsey don't cheat. It's just hidden much better.
Secular guys who cheat often get caught out because they cheat with women in their social circles, and it's usually longer than a one night stand. There are texts, dates, trysts. Sometimes they even leave their wife for another woman.
Frum men don't cheat less, or at least not significantly less. They just hire anonymous harlots instead, and it's all a lot more underground and harder to catch. It's very well known in Israel, any harlot interviewed will tell you a huge percentage of her clients are ultra Orthodox. My best friend used to work in a cheap hotel and she told me tons of haredim came in with hookers, all the time.
I think it's creepier and grosser to cheat with a harlot than with another woman on equal standing. Paying a harlot means you are subsidizing an industry that demeans and exploits troubled women.

I think most frum men are good faithful men, as are most non-frum. But it is wrong to bury your head and say that a problem doesn't exist at all just because it is swept very well under the rug.

amother

Linen

Fri, Nov 24 2017, 2:44 am

amother wrote:

Shabbat, you have not answered my question. You claimed that every issue is just as prevalent in our society as it is in the secular world. Statistics currently stand at affairs in 1 out of every 2.7 marriages.

Even if some are absolute secrets, are you still saying that a spouse in 1 out of every 3 right wing couples has had or is having an affair??

I don't know about statistics, but I think the numbers are less for both frum and secular. Or I'm just naive.
Affair is a loaded word. It means having a real relationship. I think most frum men who cheat don't have affairs, just s@x, often paid for. I actually think that's worse. I respect a man who slept with a woman he actually had to talk to first, more than I respect a man who just paid her.

amother

Goldenrod

Fri, Nov 24 2017, 4:05 am

amother wrote:

I think you're wrong. Plenty of regular frum men have real affairs with real women they meet online, not that they pay. There are definitely also ultra Orthodox that pay for harlots. But saying that only the harlot issue was widespread and not the other way around is being naive. I can give you phone numbers of woman whose ex's cheated on them with a real relationship and another woman.

The reason that men are not caught in the frum world is not because the texts and emails aren't there. It's because woman really believe that it doesn't happen in our circle so they're not even looking for it or noticing it. If he makes an excuse about something, they don't even think twice about suspicion or that it's a weird excuse. They just believe whatever he tells them. A non-jewish woman whose husband is acting strange and he tells her it is just stress from work will be looking out for clues. If he works late, she won't just take it at face value and believe him. Frum woman would say my husband would never do that, there's no way he would cheat. It wouldn't even enter their mind to be looking so they don't notice.

Laiya

Fri, Nov 24 2017, 9:43 am

No one is saying that no frum men cheat, or are abusive or do wrong things. But it's impossible to make a comparison based only on our own personal experiences or people we associate with.

It makes intuitive sense to me to say that, in a system where rules are in place--sure, some people will flout the rules, but--people will behave better, *overall*, than where there are no rules in place to begin with.

Added to that, the point that Squishy made about the safety net offered by being part of a community. There are many well-established benefits to being part of a community, in general, which one would expect to correlate with lower rates of misbehavior and crime.

LovesHashem

Sat, Nov 25 2017, 10:38 am

naturalmom5 wrote:

I am forced to agree totally with Shabbat..

I also greatly resent that across the board both here on Imamother as well as IRL, it's always the same.

Bullying in school ...We don't have gangs like the inner city

Education.. Our children can read as well or better than minorities in Lakewood PS. We are better than PS 12 in the South Bronx. Let's have a round of applause..

White Collar crime... we aren't Madoff or other high-profile criminals. And even when someone is. Look how much chesed and charity we give.

Child molesting... It's a lie . Antisemites are fabricating, Oh, you have a video. Well, it's only a sicko who maybe isn't from our community. Actually he's related to a big Rov or Rosh Yeshiva. Well, that's MOSER...

Business, we are doing better than the average dysfunctional guy in the trailer park.

Marital infidelity.. We are better than the most banal sectors of the general population. Do you have statistics..

There is a lot of beautiful wonderful things going on in the frum community. But there are many problems too. It is the antithesis of real Torah values to constantly be in denial as opposed to stand up and be modeh al ha emes.
We are trying to do good... we need to work on being better...

WE (the ones arguing back) ARE not denying that they aren't problems. (Sure, some people will deny that, but we aren't right now, here, on this thread)
The question is HOW BIG the problem is.

As much as I think there ARE problems, and EVERY single one of these problems are not just regulated to non jews, I still believe with all my heart and all my soul, that they are less to SOME DEGREE over by RW Jews. If even by ONE percent!

My head doesn't understand how those following a guidebook on how to live, the blueprint OF CREATION ITSELF will have the same rate of problems as those who do not.

Like I mentioned MANY times before, I beleive there are truly amazing, moral, wonderful non jews, and I grew up with MANY of them. But, realistically there are more immoral non jews than Jews. They just take up a larger percentage of the world, non jews encompass every single country in the world, including radical muslims, ancient tribes, murderes, rapists, and all the people in the middle east who still abuse women, and countries where it is illegal for women to vote and are considered subhuman.

amother

Linen

Sat, Nov 25 2017, 11:07 am

LovesHashem wrote:

[color=indigo]

As much as I think there ARE problems, and EVERY single one of these problems are not just regulated to non jews, I still believe with all my heart and all my soul, that they are less to SOME DEGREE over by RW Jews. If even by ONE percent!

If it's just one percent difference, then it's a failure IMO. RW society comes with a lot of restrictions and problems in itself. For example, keeping women out of the public sphere is a huge disadvantage, which curtails women's rights and options. This might be worth it if there were 40% less cheating in marriages. Not 1%,

amother

Linen

Sat, Nov 25 2017, 11:08 am

LovesHashem wrote:

But, realistically there are more immoral non jews than Jews. They just take up a larger percentage of the world, non jews encompass every single country in the world, including radical muslims, ancient tribes, murderes, rapists, and all the people in the middle east who still abuse women, and countries where it is illegal for women to vote and are considered subhuman.[/b][/color]

Yes, agreed. I think we are comparing middle class western society here, Jews to nonJews. I don't think anyone imagines we are on the moral level of awful primitive cultures around the world.

amother

Linen

Sat, Nov 25 2017, 12:24 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

The OP did not specify "American, middle class, white, privileged, college attending non jews"

No, but I thought it was obvious she was comparing to nonJews (and secular Jews) in the same country, around the same socioeconomic level. An equal playing field, so to say.

If we compare ourselves to countries undergoing war, famine, and genocide, or even to inner city gang lifestyles, then yay, we are doing much better.

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Nov 25 2017, 1:44 pm

amother wrote:

I am not Squishy but I agree with (most of) her claims.

I believe she is referring to the right wing/ultra orthodox communities who adhere to strict gender segregation rules. Not saying other communities are not "real frum" but in regards to this discussion, there's a world of a difference between the two kinds of communities and the scandals that brew within them.

Shabbat, you have not answered my question. You claimed that every issue is just as prevalent in our society as it is in the secular world. Statistics currently stand at affairs in 1 out of every 2.7 marriages.

Even if some are absolute secrets, are you still saying that a spouse in 1 out of every 3 right wing couples has had or is having an affair??

yes, I really do think so. I can actually think of two couples that got divorced because of cheating. And thats just couples that I PERSONALLY KNOW. There are many that are not out there.
Yes, I really do believe that what I wrote is true.

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Nov 25 2017, 1:56 pm

Squishy wrote:

I don't know what goes on in MO communities with mixed kiddishes nowadays. I came from that background. When I was 11 the girls in my YI Hebrew School were talking about relations with boys. They went to third base, home base, second base, etc. I had no idea what they were taking about when they asked me what base I went to.

Im sorry but you say that when you were 11 they were talking about getting to 3rd base. Well, thats also specific to some communities as well and not others. I grew up MO and never heard of such talk ever.
Also, your first sentence, no offense, but what the heck do you think happens at a kiddsh or in MO communities? There arent 2ex parties in the middle of the childen's parks. We are good moral people who are acting just as halachic as the next. I dont get your questions or insinuation, really.

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Nov 25 2017, 2:04 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Loveshashem, I really think you are deluding yourself by thinking that the right wing communities have some degree less of these problems. Its not the case. Have you heard of pedophiles and 2ex criminals in the charedi world? I have, 10 fold.
And by definition the people who are doing these crimes are living outwardly as RW jews, but on the inside? They are jsut as bad as any other joe shmoe who is doing xyz that is deplorable. I really dont understand how you can think otherwise.
There are so many pedophiles all over the place, in FRUM COMMUNITIES. And im not just talking about MO or DL (gasp, thats fru too, not sure why you singled out RW Rolling Eyes

) and yes, in RW communities too. They are well hidden, but boy are they there. As are cheaters, as re rapists, as are as are as are........

LovesHashem

Sat, Nov 25 2017, 5:05 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

) and yes, in RW communities too. They are well hidden, but boy are they there. As are cheaters, as re rapists, as are as are as are........

Yes, yes and yes. I KNOW of all these things.
I am not idiot. I myself have been se*ually abused, and the frum community tried to shut it up. I'm not some naive yeshivish young mom living her life out in Israel on a kollel paycheck with some semianry dreams. I've been through a hell lot of stuff, and I'm the ones usually telling my friends not to be naive.

Like I said at least 5 times and I'll say it again. I do think it exists, I just think the rate is less, if even by one percent or five.

youngishbear

Sat, Nov 25 2017, 9:28 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

The OP did not specify "American, middle class, white, privileged, college attending non jews"

As if all frum Jews meet these criteria.

How can we even consider a single frum community as a homogenous socioeconomic group? Certainly in the RW chassidish world I live in, people from all economic levels live alongside each other, as do high school dropouts and people with a bachelors or even master's degree. We aren't all white, and some aren't American or haven't been for long.

Are we even talking about the same people and criteria?