Imamothes please identify ur 'sector'..

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:01 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

1. Yes you are right. Many gedolim disagree with each other but still hold each other to be gedolim as Mommygr8 said, but chareidi gedolim don't hold your gedolim as gedolim.

How do you know this to be true? I will boldly say that I do think that many modern orthodox/dati leumi rabbanim do hold many charedi gedolim in hi regard. I think you are greatly mistaken. Unless you were told this to your face, I just dont believe this. it is that sad to believe.
Your posts keep on dividing the frum world more and more. Dont you see that?

amother

Ivory

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:02 pm

chanchy123 wrote:

Like in all other sects of Judaism, not everyone is able to follow every rule even if they think it's the right thing to do. So even if they know/think they should be covering their hair, some women are just not there. Like other women struggle in lashon hara, minutiae of hilchot Shabbat, or elsewhere, we're not all perfect even if we try. That doesn't negate all the amazing things they do and remove them from the fold

in my opinion it doesn’t work like this. If you intentionally break rules, I have a hard time calling you Orthodox. If you inadvertently do so, then thats different in my opinion. For example: if I think that I can’t be bothered or it’s hard for me to light shabbos candles, I don’t think I can call myself Orthodox. If I forget, then that’s a mistake. If I speak Loshon harah intentionally - I say it’s just too hard for me, I’ll focus on tefillah - I don’t think that’s how it works. It’s very nice to focus on tefillah, but being orthodox means following the rules. I can’t eat at McDonald's when traveling and consider myself Orthodox. I just don’t see how that works.
Now, sometimes there are lenient opinions. Following a leniency doesn’t make you not Orthodox, if it’s backed up by an orthodox Rabbi. In this category is not covering your hair. It’s ridiculous to choose a halacha, and proclaim that if you follow other poskim - who hold differently than you, or even differently than the majority - your out of the sect.
* off topic, and controversial, but this is why I personally don’t think a man married to another man, is considered orthodox - even if he follows all other halachos perfectly.

dancingqueen

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:03 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

1. Yes you are right. Many gedolim disagree with each other but still hold each other to be gedolim as Mommygr8 said, but chareidi gedolim don't hold your gedolim as gedolim.

2. I'm not sure, maybe ask them. BTW just because I don't agree with their path and see it valid doesn't mean I have invalidated their entire existense. Cmon, I still respect them for what they do, support them, have with them, and do everything REGULAR FRIENDS do!

3. A lifestyle is a culture, living a Torah life means submitting yourself to the Torah and to Hashem.

If you don’t find MO rabbanim and their halachic decisions to be valid than yes you are invalidating our path. So thanks for that!

I am MO and consider myself frum aka religious.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:04 pm

BadTichelDay wrote:

Actually, the Mishnah Berurah (75:2) written by the Chofetz Chaim permits being without socks in places where the minhag is to be without them. Does that mean that the Chofetz Chaim was no gadol in your opinion?

How do you determine which gedolim to follow? What makes one Rav a gadol in your eyes and another one not?

This, so many times over. I agree with this so much.

amother

Ivory

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:05 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

she is totally wrong. At least in America , historically as well as presently, the rabanim hold each other in high regard and accord respect to one another. Perhaps this is different in E”Y, and among chasidim. (I will say that as of recently there might be an exception with regards to Open aorthodoxy)

LovesHashem

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:08 pm

BadTichelDay wrote:

1. Klal yisroel took upon themselves to wear socks, I'm not sure if that was before or after his time. Minhag hamakom means that the local rebetzins do wtvr it is. If there is a place where the most religous rebetzins in the city don't wear socks, PLEASE let me know!

2. Gedolim aknowledge each other. From Moshe Rabeinu, downwards, Moshe said Yehoshua was a gadol, and it was passed downwards till today's gedolim. Gedolim are verified to be gedolim by a verified gadol or by a gadol of a prior generation.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:09 pm

amother wrote:

Thank you. That is what I thought. I also thought she was completely wrong. I feel like great big rabbanim hold many rabbanim, from different walks of orthodoxy, in high regard. What the other poster wrote is hopefully bullocks.

LovesHashem

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:11 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

But does it work the opposite way?
Ahavas Yisroel doesn't mean agreement, it means love, kindness, empathy, helping each other out, respect, learning from one another.

Please don't accuse me of dividing the entire frum world for having an opinion, belief, and understanding of the world around me.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:12 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Loveshashem, you are digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole and I really dont see how you are going to be able to find your way out. Bnei yisrael NEVER collectively took it upon themselves to wear socks. I have never heard something so outrageous, ever.
I know of a few rabbaniot who do not wear socks. It is definitely done, but you wont hold by them because they are, gasp, MO/DL.

LovesHashem

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:13 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

If you don’t find MO rabbanim and their halachic decisions to be valid than yes you are invalidating our path. So thanks for that!

I am MO and consider myself frum aka religious.

Invalidating your path to Hashem and your existence, all of your decisions, and and everything are COMPLETELY different things.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:14 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

The opposite? As in charedi rabbanim holding modern orthodoc rabbanim in high regard? I do think so. I think you are totally off base thinking that its only one way.

Where did you learn all of this???

LovesHashem

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:16 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

This is what I learned. I can get a source if you must have one. I'm sure though one of the other yeshivish or chareidi posters can give a source.

I belive minhag hamakom must mean a few of the biggest rabbaniot in the city must do it, not a local shul one.

LovesHashem

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:17 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Perhaps in the USA, not so in Israel at least....
Um, school? My community? My rabbanim? This is how israeli chareidim believe.
Good morning.

simcha2

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:18 pm

amother wrote:

Then you are calling yourself not orthodox as you are purposefully maligning and speaking loshon hora about other yirei shamayim yidden and violating v'ahavta l'reicha kmocha (hiding behind amother....).

(No, I'm not really calling you not frum, just pointing out the fallacy in your argument).

keym

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:20 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

No actually. Minhag hamakom is defined as the way the standard "frum" yirei hashem dress in a particular city or community.

amother

Ivory

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:21 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Let me preface by saying that I am very right wing yeshivish. And I always wear socks.
1. Klal yisrael did not do this. Maybe where you live they did this. Examples of places they didn’t: Yemen, Baltimore, cleveland, Florida, certain areas in Israel, in fact, probably more places DIDNT than did. Now, if a Rebitzen wants to be machmir (take note of what machmir means, in reference to halacha) that doesn’t make it minhag hamakom. Why did you decide that?
2. This is how semicha works. So you obtain semicha from a previous Rabbi, and we follow it back to Moshe rabeinu. The shalsheles hakabalah ends, and the later generations: rishonim, acharonim, and rabanim, don’t have a direct line specifically to one person. Rather we have a large group of leaders. So in many cases regarding halacha, there are disputes among the rishonim, for example, and there isn’t one more powerful than the other.( The shulchan aruch was organized, and later came the Mishnah berurah. We can pasken NOT like the MB, but still in line with the SA, and that’s ok.) This is simply what’s known as chilukai daos. Going back further to times of the Gemara, (for example Hillel and shamai,) when there is a dispute we say “ailu veailu divrei elokim chaim”. Your post doesn’t seem to take this into account.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:24 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Perhaps in the USA, not so in Israel at least....
Um, school? My community? My rabbanim? This is how israeli chareidim believe.
Good morning.

you have actually heard charedi rabbanim say terrible things about MO/DL rabbanim? Or negate their authenticity???? I would not be calling such men rabbanim then. Thats actually awful.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, Dec 05 2017, 12:26 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

No, that is not what minhag hamakom means. And you "believe it must mean...."?
No, minhag hamakom does not mean what the biggest rabbaniot do. Where did you learn that? It does not mean that at all. It means what the religious population does as a whole or took on something, but usually as a whole or majority, not the rabbaniot.