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Forum
-> In the News
was there collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia
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| There was |
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58% |
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41% |
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| Total Votes : 48 |
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WhatFor
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 Sun, Dec 03 2017, 9:03 pm
Robert Mueller is currently leading this investigation. It seems like some on here believe that he is wasting his time. Is he dumb enough to do that? Who is Robert Mueller? Does he even care about America?
He was a Republican who was appointed by George W. Bush to lead the FBI from 2001 to 2011.
He was well-liked enough that he received a two year extension by Barack Obama and he continued to serve until 2013.
But let's backtrack a bit. Let's go way back and see how he conducted himself throughout his life. I think this is relevant because readers on this board believe he somehow wasting tons of US resources to pursue something that never happened. So what is this man about?
He graduated from his High School in 1962 as the captain of his school's soccer, hockey, and lacrosse team and won the medal as the school's top athlete, but big whoop. Maybe he was just athletic.
He went to Princeton where he got his bachelor's in politics and then got his Master's degree in international relations from NYU.
Then he got accepted into the Marine Corps in 1968, went to South Vietnam as a rifle platoon Commander, got an enemy gunshot in his thigh, recovered, then returned to lead his platoon through 1969. He received numerous medals for his service which I won't bother to list over here, but feel free to Google it. He seems like someone who probably cared about America and also did not have bone spurs.
Then he got his j.d. from the University of Virginia School of Law, was a litigator at a private firm for a few years.
Then he spent the next 12 years serving as an attorney for the United States. During this time, he became chief of a criminal division in one US attorney office, then he became an Assistant US attorney in another office. He went to work for a private firm for a few years after that.
He then went back to working for the government, in the US Department of Justice, where he soon took charge of its criminal division. He later became the US Attorney for the Northern District of New York, and be served in that position until George W Bush nominated him to be the head of the FBI.
And now back to where I was at the top. When George W Bush nominated him to be Director of the FBI, he was so well-liked that he was unanimously voted in by the Senate, 98-0. He served as head through three presidential terms until James Comey (who worked for him throughout this time) took over.
When Mueller was appointed to head this investigation by Rod Rosenstein, it got widespread support from both parties.
It's healthy to question things. It's important to think about the motives behind a person's activities. And when doing so, it's important to use common sense.
Mueller is now 73. He has had a stellar career and could be happily vacationing anywhere he wants with all the honor in the world. He has taken down major crime families through his career, he was a war hero.
Do you really think he wants to throw it all away and head up an investigation that will go nowhere just so he can create a distraction to help out anti-Trump people? Is he the kind of man who would do that?
How can we know? Well we can all ourselves, where were his loyalties his whole life? What agency or entity did he serve for the majority of his life? What entity did he risk his life and take a gunshot for?
See, I believe Robert Mueller is someone who cares about the United States. I base this on nothing except for his actual career serving the US. So I find that it strains credibility to believe that he's doing this whole investigation all for nothing.
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Laiya
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 9:04 pm
| Jeanette wrote: | That is very nice but the fact remains that until January 20, 2017 Trump was not the president and had no business reaching out to foreign governemnts and making foreign policy. We have only one president at a time, for good reason. This is why United States has lasted for 240 years as a stable democracy with peaceful transition of power.
For the record I do not believe violations of the Logan act will be the makeh b'patish that brings down the Trump administration. This investigation is nowhere near done. |
Again, no one else has any problems with him reaching out to foreign governments, there was nothing wrong or unusual about that. And he has not been accused of any specific crime.
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Mommyg8
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 9:06 pm
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I am not sure what Robert Mueller's track record has to do with this at all. He didn't volunteer for this position, he was appointed. Or did I miss something? I always stand to be corrected...
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WhatFor
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 9:12 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | | I am not sure what Robert Mueller's track record has to do with this at all. He didn't volunteer for this position, he was appointed. Or did I miss something? I always stand to be corrected... |
He was a private citizen, not working for the government, who could have turned down this request. US citizens aren't obligated to accept offers for positions in the government. He didn't need to do this for honor, which he already had. His track record speaks to his credibility.
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Mommyg8
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 9:15 pm
| WhatFor wrote: | | He was a private citizen, not working for the government, who could have turned down this request. US citizens aren't obligated to accept offers for positions in the government. He didn't need to do this for honor, which he already had. His track record speaks to his credibility. |
Hm... I can't say that I agree with you 100%.... Does anyone ever have too much honor?
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WhatFor
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 9:29 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | | Hm... I can't say that I agree with you 100%.... Does anyone ever have too much honor? |
So your argument is that a man with such a strong track record took on this case for the honor of looking like an idiot when this case was exposed as nothing?
I would think that a more logical conclusion is that if Mueller is only gaining more traction on this case over six months in and hasn't yet dropped it, there's probably something there.
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Mommyg8
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 9:32 pm
| WhatFor wrote: | So your argument is that a man with such a strong track record took on this case for the honor of looking like an idiot when this case was exposed as nothing?
I would think that a more logical conclusion is that if Mueller is only gaining more traction on this case over six months in and hasn't yet dropped it, there's probably something there. |
Oh, no, he's going to find something. Sorry, I wasn't getting where you were going with this. I apologize.
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WhatFor
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 9:34 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | | Oh, no, he's going to find something. Sorry, I wasn't getting where you were going with this. I apologize. |
No worries! I tried to explain it at the end of the track record post, but it was a very long post so maybe you never got to it.
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Mommyg8
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 9:39 pm
| WhatFor wrote: | | No worries! I tried to explain it at the end of the track record post, but it was a very long post so maybe you never got to it. |
I did read it. I'm not sure what you mean, but ok, I'm tired.
My opinion is, he took the job for whatever reason, but he would have no way of knowing if there was an actual crime or not, before he started. But the fact that he allowed Flynn to plead guilty does point to something - at this point, we don't know what. I still don't know if Trump actually did do anything illegal, and I'm also not sure if Flynn will ever be able to actually prove it if he did do anything. Anything can happen at this point, including arranging a nice scapegoat for Mueller, and he may never be able to touch Trump. I just don't know.
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marina
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Sun, Dec 03 2017, 9:54 pm
| Mommyg8 wrote: | 1. When you say someone is ignorant, that is a general statement. Please qualify in the future.
2 & 3) Obama tried to protect the illegals, or did he deport the illegals? Please explain. And if they were deported, why do Americans feel that there are too many illegals in this country, and why are they scared?
4) Using the term "native born" was a mistake. I amend that statement to include native born and legal immigrants, (or anyone else that pays taxes). Thank you for pointing that out. |
1. It is almost never useful to call people ignorant so I apologize for doing so.
2. I am generally frustrated because in all of these immigration conversations there is very little acknowledgement that for MANY people, there is simply no way to ever legally immigrate. I sometimes get a feeling that some people really think these illegals are just annoying lazy entitled people who are cutting the queue and they should just wait their turn. There is not a lot of understanding that, for many people there is no queue and no turn. How do you judge a mother who puts her child on a raft risking danger for a better life? How? I judge a lot of people, but that level of judgment I cannot fathom.
3. Obama did both. Congress would not pass the Dream Act, so Obama issued DACA, which was limited by the courts and rescinded by the Trump administration. Obama's administration also deported over 3 million illegals, which is technically more than the previous administrations.
4. Fear of immigrants is as old as our country and happens with every single wave of immigration. This time, technological changes and the global economy have led to many layoffs, closed factories, ghost towns, etc. Many unemployed people are angry and depressed and easily convinced that some foreign-looking foreign-speaking people coming to take their jobs, and Trump capitalized on that. I remember listening to the RNC speeches in which he went on and on about so and so whose daughter was murdered by an illegal immigrant, stoking fear into everyone and when I looked up the stories, it was a tragic car accident that happened to include an illegal, but happens all the time with regular citizens - just the most vile fear mongering.
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 9:19 am
| SixOfWands wrote: | k
I would guess that Jared Kushner is a target. He will be pardoned before anything comes out.
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I hope so. Because that's one of the major stomach churners in all this mess.
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 9:24 am
| Mommyg8 wrote: | All of us on this site are descendants of immigrants, in one way or another. Actually, that is the Jewish story - the Wandering Jew...
That does not make us ignorant, and that does not make illegal immigration suddenly "legal". |
Yes, but I totally get Marina.
If my grandparents/great grandparents wouldn't have left Europe when they did I'd be lucky to:
Be alive
Be Jewish*
Have made my way out of the Iron Curtain
Have made my way back to a vibrant Judaism.
I don't take anything for granted.
*Then again, I also have to thank my grandparents for the choices they made because there are many of my generation and later whose grandparents made it to American but are not Jewish/whose grandchildren won't be.
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SixOfWands
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 9:49 am
| PinkFridge wrote: | | I hope so. Because that's one of the major stomach churners in all this mess. |
If Kushner is pardoned, the anti-Semites on the Left will say "harumph." And the anti-Semites on the Right will say "hunh."
If Kushner is implicated without a pardon, the anti-Semites on the Left will say "a-ha!" And the anti-Semites on the right will say "it figures."
Nothing unites the Left and the Right like some good, old-fashioned Jew-hating.
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PinkFridge
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 11:19 am
| SixOfWands wrote: | If Kushner is pardoned, the anti-Semites on the Left will say "harumph." And the anti-Semites on the Right will say "hunh."
If Kushner is implicated without a pardon, the anti-Semites on the Left will say "a-ha!" And the anti-Semites on the right will say "it figures."
Nothing unites the Left and the Right like some good, old-fashioned Jew-hating. |
I'd give you a head nod but this is giving me a headache too.
At least a pardon would get him out of the way more quickly.
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southernbubby
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 11:29 am
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Fox
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 12:24 pm
| WhatFor wrote: | | See, I believe Robert Mueller is someone who cares about the United States. I base this on nothing except for his actual career serving the US. So I find that it strains credibility to believe that he's doing this whole investigation all for nothing. |
You are forgetting the meaning of "investigation." I can't blame you personally, since the MSM is laboring under the same misunderstanding.
An "investigation" is simply a formal examination of information. Properly done, an investigation does not reach a conclusion in advance and then attempt to prove it. Nor does an investigation properly start with a larger goal and then build the framework to achieve that goal.
When police are called to the scene of an unexpected death, they don't classify it as a homicide before even leaving the squad care and set about looking for a murderer. Rather, they inspect the scene, look for evidence that might tell give them information about what caused the death and sometimes even wait for a coroner's report.
If you believe that Mueller would only take on an investigation because he's convinced, a priori, that a crime or malfeasance has occurred, you are essentially claiming that he is incapable of upholding even minimal ethics of law enforcement.
People who are "certain" that there was criminal collusion based simply on their general evaluation of Trump's character either don't understand how rule of law works or are simply foaming at the mouth.
But the narrative that if Mueller just looks long and hard enough, he'll eventually find grounds for impeachment is ludicrous.
Contrary to claims made here on Imamother and elsewhere, State Department spokesman Mark Toner said on January 13, 2017, that his department had no objection to Trump's transition team contacting foreign officials.
Alan Dershowitz believes that Flynn's guilty plea is a sign that Mueller hasn't found anything.
| Quote: | | “Well, the last thing any prosecutor wants to do is to have to indict his primary witness for lying. Because if you indict your witness for lying, it really means he’s not useful as a witness, he has no credibility. I’m sure the prosecutor was trying to indict him for some scheme or conspiracy that involved other people in the White House, but there is nothing there, and he had to, finally come down and indict him for lying, which makes him a useless witness. So, this is not a show of strength by the prosecutor. It’s a show of weakness. It’s a show that they really have nothing on anybody above of Flynn and that Flynn made the terrible mistake about lying about something he could have told truth about. Because the two things he lied about were perfectly lawful and perfectly proper for somebody to do during the transition. And so, I think it really reflects a weakness, not a strength in Mueller’s prosecution.” |
We obviously need ongoing investigation and review of Russian attempts to meddle in U.S. elections as well as influence officials. But everyone who is thirsting for an impeachment out of this should keep in mind that these investigations take on lives of their own. This probe could easily come to engulf the Uranium One deal as well as President Obama's hot mic moment in which he promised "after the election, I have more flexibility" to then-Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, ultimately making Trump's administration look like choirboys.
So be careful what you wish for.
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Fox
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 12:37 pm
I believe this analysis falls under the category of, "If my grandmother had an antenna, she'd be a TV."
Allegedly Jared Kushner asked Flynn to talk to Russia to urge them to vote against or delay a vote on the U.N. Security Council resolution blaming Israel for the common cold, gravity, and cellulite.
Flynn subsequently lied about it and was fired.
If Kushner had directed him to offer a quid pro quo, then he'd be guilty of violating the Logan Act.
I'm not particularly a fan of Kushner and think he's in way, way over his head, but if he had kicked puppies, then he'd be guilty of cruelty to animals.
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Laiya
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 1:15 pm
| Fox wrote: | We obviously need ongoing investigation and review of Russian attempts to meddle in U.S. elections as well as influence officials. But everyone who is thirsting for an impeachment out of this should keep in mind that these investigations take on lives of their own. This probe could easily come to engulf the Uranium One deal as well as President Obama's hot mic moment in which he promised "after the election, I have more flexibility" to then-Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, ultimately making Trump's administration look like choirboys.
So be careful what you wish for. |
I saw that Dershowitz quote, excellent point. The last thing a prosecutor wants is to have to indict a star witness for lying about a process issue.
Flynn's credibility is gone now, and it's unlikely he'll be of any further use to Mueller.
As to why Flynn lied about something perfectly legal, I'm kind of sympathetic to him. I think if a team of FBI agents spent hours cross-examining me about what I ate for dinner last night, they'd catch me contradicting myself at some point, too.
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Fox
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Mon, Dec 04 2017, 1:27 pm
| Laiya wrote: | | As to why Flynn lied about something perfectly legal, I'm kind of sympathetic to him. I think if a team of FBI agents spent hours cross-examining me about what I ate for dinner last night, they'd catch me contradicting myself at some point, too. |
And then we wonder why we have such poor choices come election time.
Well, duh. High public office has been turned into a version of the old Groucho Marx joke: "I don't want to belong to any club that will accept me as a member."
Anyone with a lick of intelligence, ability, experience, or integrity witnesses the adversarial tone of even the most benign Senate confirmation hearings and says, "I'm not going to drag myself and my family through this! I'll find fulfillment in the private sector, thank you very much."
I think of this particularly when people complain that Trump is a narcissist. Um, probably. I think some level of narcissism is virtually a prerequisite for running for the office or actually serving as President.
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