Children of BTs/Geirim

amother

Aqua

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 12:11 pm

amother wrote:

Baltimore--any any other very large established OOT community like Chicago, LA, and Miami are somewhat of an exception. I think the bigger difference is between "second generation BTs" from places like Portland, Sacramento, Cincinnati, and Nashville, raised like BY girls, compared to BY girls raised in NY. That's because, as a generalization, even the established OOT communities have exposure to baalei teshuva and lots of stripes of people and are encouraged to mingle in a way that more insular neighborhoods are not.

I dont know. I am ffb from large oot city.Dh Iis a child of BT same city. There are a lot of huge differences I our background. His mostly shame that his parents sounded different, couldnt learn with him, went overzealousbin certain things.
Im happy to have married him but to say theres no difference between us is unrealistic.

naturalmom5

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 12:15 pm

Bizzydizzymommy wrote:

I'm not referring to Jewish raised geirim. My own Chasidish sister in law is considered a giyores since she was born before my inlaws were megayer so she went through a process at age 12. But was raised fully frum.
I'm talking about people that were drawn to Judaism and weren't raised in it.

And I met many Gerim that did self-introspection and thought through and rejected a lot of garbage they were raised with. They are among the most normal, well-adjusted people I know.

I also know many FFBs, that never analyzed anything. They seem to be frum, but are really reverse-maranos. They only stay because they can't afford the financial, social, and psychological repercussions of being different from their family and community. They are among the most neurotic, unstable individuals I know.

amother

Tan

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 12:21 pm

I think there is also a difference between different bt's geririm. I don't think you can make a blanket statement. My dh is a bt. There is definitely certain things about the way he "thinks" that could be "blamed" on not growing up ffb but I think it has more to do with the fact that he is an independent thinker. There are plenty of FFB people who also value secular education, being able to support your family, not talking during shul etc...

He learned to lein when he was bar mitzvahed etc. so he doesn't have an "accent" when he leins or davens for the amud. He is kovea itim and learns b'chavrusah just like the local ffbs... I think many people have no idea that he didn't grow up frum. I know other bt's that it it is much more apparent that they didn't grow up frum.

and OP unfortunately there are many ffb families who also have a child off the derech Sad

amother

Linen

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 12:25 pm

amother wrote:

I think there is also a difference between different bt's geririm. Sad

As with everything, there are a lot of factors like age when became frum, what family was like before, what community they moved to, how smart or musical they are (to catch on to gamara or zemiros) etc etc.

In my parents case, even though one is a ger and one is a BT, there wasn't a huge difference between their backgrounds/adjustment. But they did it together, post marriage at about age 30-35, so Hebrew was never easy for either of them.

keym

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 12:44 pm

Eretz Yisroel may be a very accepting place to Gerim/BT, but I would still caution people from moving there before theyre totally settled spiritually and emotionally. It could be very hard to find a place or community that fits where you are. Israeli communities could be even more black and white than some American ones in the RW community. The language barrier,, the culture clash, people who are um overly enthusiastic (aka weirdos). Theres a lot that can be hard for someone finding their footing frumwise.

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 12:57 pm

Apologies to anyone who was offended by my use of the term, second generation BT/geirim.

My teenage and almost teenage grandchildren have come now to realize that their grandparents were not always frum and have asked about it. We tried to avoid talking about that until they figured it out or asked. This is something that every "second generation frum" person must figure out how to deal with; his or her parents' past.

Sometimes some condescending little stinkers who were born to yichus still make offensive remarks to my grown children. Sorry for saying something negative about fellow Jews but those people are showing off their insecurities in some very obvious ways. They either get ignored or sometimes put in their place which always gives me great satisfaction when my adult children tell me about their stunning comebacks.

I do agree that it is, like many said, not a one size fits all label. Some BTs and geirim are so learned and have integrated so well that they lead communities. Some become noted rabbonim. Some communities, such as NY, actually have some very well adjusted BTs because they formed intentional families. One of my in-law children speaks of her parent's close friend's children as 'cousins' because in these intentional family/communities, each BT as like an aunt or uncle to the children of the other BTs in their crowd, who all became frum around the same time and somewhat in the same way.

Some BTs in smaller communities had too few other children of BTs in the school and their children did not feel so accepted. It all depends on lots of circumstances such as financial status, how socially confident the BT parents are, how frum they actually become, how often they spend time with non-religious family members, etc. I have seen issues when parents who took their kids to sports events and sent their children to schools where this was frowned upon. This caused the kids to be looked down upon by the rebbeim of the school when they came to school talking about their favorite sports hero.

In some cases BTs were attracted to frumkeit by the idea of ahavas Yisroel. They figured that that meant that the frum community was willing to meet many of their needs and they were sadly disappointed that this was not really the case. Then that leads to anger, bitterness, and a sense of betrayal and these feelings can be transmitted to the children.

amother

Blush

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 1:10 pm

DrMom wrote:

OTOH, many of those communities are far less accepting of non-FFB/geirim than other communities. Especially when it comes to shidduchim.

In my experience, people in those communities are just less accepting of differences. My father died when I was a young child, and many of my shidduchim were either missing a parent or the parents were divorced. There was nothing wrong with either party that required being treated that way, but we were different, so we needed to be herded together to avoid exposing the rest of the population. It is what it is.

amother

Khaki

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 1:27 pm

amother wrote:

All I know is that if BT/ger parents were well adjusted, emotionally stable, kind people, their offspring are generally well adjusted, emotionally stable, kind ffb people. And their offspring are usually indiscernible from ffb children of ffb parents. Take a community like Baltimore, MD for example - dominated by BT s during the height of the BT movement in the eighties and nineties, now populated by their ffb children, who are by and large well adjusted, emotionally stable, kind people, and cannot be told apart from any other ffb of ffb parents raised in the same community. This second generation thing just seems like another way to be elitist. Don't see it's true, don't buy it, and don't like the term.

My parents are BTs and I was rasied frum. I and all my siblings are well adjusted, emotionally stable, and kind people. But, actually, yes, we are different from those raised by FFB parents, and proud of it. We are different in that we have a deep appreciation for the fact that our family is frum. Even now, 30 years after my parents became frum, we continue to be grateful that Hashem guided our family to this path in a generation when so many families were lost to assimilation. We are different in that we relate to BTs and those not yet frum with sensitivity and understanding. I was once asked by a secular Jewish acquaintance if I have secular people in my family because she found that I related to her in a way that was different (in a positive way) from the other frum people she encountered, even though on the surface I appeared exactly like them.

So, yeah, if you think of being a BT as something negative then calling someone a second generation BT is negative. But, personally, I am proud of my BT background, and feel strongly that being raised by BTs has very much made me who I am today in a very positive way.

amother

Ruby

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 1:58 pm

amother wrote:

So you think people in small out of town communities are more insulated than in larger ones?

amother

Burlywood

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 2:25 pm

You know, I'm just glad we're having this conversation. I grew up in one of those big oot communities during the BT Movement, and talking openly about the struggles of the children of BT was definitely "politically incorrect.". I remember the hushed tones my friends and I used when the frum world began openly acknowledging the kids at risk epidemic...shhh, but why don't those JO magazine articles write about a huge role the BT Movement plays in the kids at risk epidemic?...the kids who are tired of being second class, feeling ashamed, etc... It was definitely taboo. While we all know ffb kids can be at risk, and ffb kids of BT parents mostly turn out just fine, the kids of BT parents often were ashamed of their parents and felt they had a lot to prove to become complete members of frum culture...I'm so grateful we can use the safety of the internet to discuss this openly.

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 2:31 pm

amother wrote:

Lots of FFBs blamed the BTs for influencing their kids who went off.

dancingqueen

Thu, Dec 28 2017, 2:46 pm

BH5745 wrote:

Well... why can't all the people who don't "feel accepted" by their current communities accept and marry each other? There are b"ah a lot of BT and Gerim, and many many more children among these parents b"ah, so that's an enormous pool of potential marriage partners, isn't it?

They should just stick to their own kind right? :/

I do think that since BTs/geirim chose their own path their kids might be exposed to more ideas than FFBs and may be more open to choosing their own paths. But I don’t know if there is actually a higher rate of otd in those families than FFBs.

But being treated like second class citizens is a key factor to pushing kids otd.