Are we supposed to believe everything that says in Chumash?

tichellady

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 12:15 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Ok, we don't hold like the Rambam, that is a minority opinion Smile

.

Then how do you explain אין הדבר יוצא מידי פשוטו?

And I never heard of something that is not literal. Example?

Since when do we not hold like the rambam???? And the rambam was just one example. Chazal certainly don’t take everything literally.

I don’t understand why that line means everything need to be understood literally. It makes me sad when people make Judaism so simplistic and nonsensical. We are not fundamenalist Christians, we can handle complexity. This doesn’t seem to be something you know a lot about so please don’t say something so misinformed that can be so damaging.

Things that may not be literal according to Rishonim ( maybe Chazal too) - creation in 7 days, story of eyov, hoshea taking a prostiture wife, etc, this is just off my head, there are more examples I learned about
Many of the laws- such as “ eye for eye” are definitely not understood as literal

Mommyg8

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 12:19 am

tichellady wrote:

Right, so we believe in creation in 7 days. Let's not go there, ok?

Iyov and hoshea is navi, not chumash .

And the Rambam was a yachid. Nobody else holds that way.

I'm sorry if it makes you sad that my beliefs are different than yours. It makes me sad as well.

tichellady

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 12:28 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

What you are saying is wrong and has no backing. Anyone who has learned Torah she bel peh would say that you are wrong. Of course much of the Torah is taken literally, but we have the Torah she bel peh to tell us what to interpret literally and what not. And there are some debates on which specific stories or laws are meant to be taken literally or not , like everything in Judaism , but the idea that everything is meant to be taken literally, nope that’s not part of our tradition. I’m not trying to be mean, but what you are saying makes no sense and actually goes against everything we believe about Torah she Bal peh. You can believe whatever you want, but I think what you are saying comes from misundestanding or a lack of serious Torah learning and is not a mainstream halakahic view.

See this article- http://www.aish.com/atr/Is-the.....e=yes

Mommyg8

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 12:33 am

tichellady wrote:

I just read this article, and yes, I completely disagree. Again, אין הדבר יוצא מידי כפשוטו. What does that mean?

And the gemara explains the literal translation of certain words, such as an eye for an eye. The gemara explains what the LITERAL Meaning is.

tichellady

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 12:34 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Well my dear, then you are a karaite!

Mommyg8

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 12:38 am

tichellady wrote:

Well my dear, then you are a karaite!

No, no, you completely twisted my words around.

The gemara explains certain parts of the chumash, I remember this about halachos. The stories about the avos, etc, are completely true.

And you didn't explain the chazal.

tichellady

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 12:48 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I really am not understanding what you are saying. All I’m saying and the article is saying is that Chazal will say when they don’t think something in the Torah is meant to be taken literally, and that does happen . I’m not sure what you disagree with here. If you think everything is meant to be taken literally then you are a karaite.

To the op, Chazal understood most of the stories you listed as literal. I don’t see why you need to dwell on whether they are true or not, what do you feel is gained by them not being true? Does it make you feel yucky about human nature? Trying to understand the real question here

DrMom

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 1:41 am

Blessing1 wrote:

I read a little Chumash here & there, & some things I just have a hard time believing. Like Adams kids had s*x with each other's, Lavan's daughters having s*x with him, rape leshem shamayim & many other relationship related topics. Are we supposed to believe it all??

I am a little confused. Don't we read chumash every week? How could this be news to you?

southernbubby

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 9:34 am

Here is how Chabad holds:

My father wrote that he heard in the name of the Alter Rebbe that all rabbinic authors until and including the Taz1 and Shach,2 composed their works with ruach hakodesh, the Divine Spirit. An individual's ruach hakodesh, as explained by Korban Ha'eida in Tractate Sh'kalim (Talmud Yerushalmi), end of ch. 3, means that the mysteries of Torah are revealed to him. This comes from the aspect of chochma in its pre-revelation state.3

Compiled and arranged by the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, of righteous memory, in 5703 (1943) from the talks and letters of the sixth Chabad Rebbe, Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak Schneersohn, of righteous memory.

PinkFridge

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 10:37 am

Blessing1 wrote:

Dr.Mom, no I don't read Chumash regularly. I'm sure most women don't. Though we did learn Chumash in school, these topics where skipped.

Here's a suggestion:
Get an overview of the parsha from the Stone chumash. If there are any areas that you have questions on check out www.torah.org, the OU website, YU Torah, for starters.
Not that you can't start discussions here, but if you have the time and headspace, you should be learning. Hatzlacha!

Mommyg8

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 10:40 am

tichellady wrote:

My hadrach in machshava comes from Rabbi Avigdor Miller.

He says that the Rambam is a minority opinion, we follow the majority in general. He clearly states that there is no mesorah that seven days is metaphorical, and therefore we follow that seven days is seven real days. I'm not going into a scientific debate about this right now, but I looked into this, and there are definitely plausible answers to explain this.

I am not misinformed at all, I just happen to disagree with you.

The Torah Shebaal Peh (Gemarah) explains the Torah, but AFAIK all the stories about our Avos are meant to be taken literally.

keym

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 11:00 am

OP it makes me sad that youre reading a bit here and there causing you discomfort. My suggestion would be to take a topic and learn it through. Rashi ramban or hachaim sforno. English sources if the language is difficult. Ask Rabbis.
Lots daughters. They thought the world was destroyed and they were literally the last two women and their father the last man on earth. They neede to populate. Even so it was considered icky. And the older daughter who named her son Moav was criticized for publicizing her sons history.
In general my shita follows the thought that most of these stories are true bwcause these were real people, messy people who had to make choices and we learn from their choices and how they responded. Yehuda said tzadka mimeni. Dovid said chatasi. These lessons are so important to learn that its worth telling us the icky stuff also.

octopus

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 11:05 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Ok, we don't hold like the Rambam, that is a minority opinion Smile

.

Then how do you explain אין הדבר יוצא מידי פשוטו?

And I never heard of something that is not literal. Example?

I never heard of anyone saying they don't hold from the Rambam. What on earth is that supposed to mean???? shock

As far as something that is not literal- Let's take the story of Avraham and the 3 malachim. There are meforshim that hold that this was a prophetic vision.

octopus

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 11:08 am

As far as creation is concerned, even tehillim alludes to the fact that a Divine Day is not the same as a human day (a day is like a thousand years we say it in shachris EVERYDAY). So even though creation took place in 7 days, these were Divine Days. But now we are touching on kabbalistic concepts. And I'm not comfortable going there.

octopus

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 11:13 am

And to answer OP- as orthodox Jews we believe in both the torah sh'bcsav and torah sh'baal peh. If you only believe in one without the other or vice versa it is heretical. Do you think all the bad stuff that happens in the world today is all new? It all existed before. Nothing is new. If the torah were written today by ppl it would probably would be heavily censored! I mean the story with Lot and his daughters - incest! yehuda and tamar-scandalous! kayin and hevel- murder! But there are reasons why these stories are written in the Torah and we learn a lot of things from it.

octopus

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 11:14 am

Blessing1 wrote:

who was raped l'shem shemayim???