Are we supposed to believe everything that says in Chumash?

Mommyg8

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 8:20 am

octopus wrote:

I never heard of anyone saying they don't hold from the Rambam. What on earth is that supposed to mean???? shock

As far as something that is not literal- Let's take the story of Avraham and the 3 malachim. There are meforshim that hold that this was a prophetic vision.

Like I said, I got this from RAbbi Avigdor Miller. According to him, the Rambam is a minority opinion in this.

And the three malachim are not specifically written about in Tanach as being malachim? I have to check that.

octopus

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 8:27 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Please explain what you mean by this sentence. I'm trying to make sense of it. So if the pasuk mentions malachim then all of a sudden it still can't be a prophetic vision? It's been a really long time since I've been in school, but Avraham was being visited by the shechina before the malachim make an appearance. We are always taught that welcoming guests is even greater than receiving the shechina, but there are opinions (and I'm not even sure it's the rambams- it may very well be ramban or ohr hachayim) that Avraham never left the presence of the shechina. Avraham experienced a prophetic vision and yes he actually saw the malachim but it was a nevuah. Doesn't mean the story didn't happen. The story did happen. But torah can be learned on many levels, and many of us haven't learned the stories past a preschool level. The torah is written in a concise language with no extra words. That is why we need meforshim to help understand it.

tichellady

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 9:01 am

octopus wrote:

I never heard of anyone saying they don't hold from the Rambam. What on earth is that supposed to mean???? shock

As far as something that is not literal- Let's take the story of Avraham and the 3 malachim. There are meforshim that hold that this was a prophetic vision.

Right, like the rambam ( that his view of the story)

tichellady

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 9:04 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Where does Rav Avigdor Miller say this? I find it hard to believe that he disagrees with Chazal. What about how they interpret Reuven sleeping with his fathers wife as non literal? Does he disagree and say it’s literal since the Torah is always literal? Does he also understand Gd to have a real hand and body?

tichellady

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 9:07 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

They are called “ Anashim” in the Torah

pause

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 9:15 am

tichellady wrote:

Where does it say that in chumash?

PinkFridge

Fri, Dec 29 2017, 10:11 am

I might be simplifying things but perhaps we should take things literally unless they can't be taken literally:
- if Reuven really slept with her, he couldn't be one of the shivtei Kah. Ditto for Dovid Hamelech: it couldn't have been pure aishes ish.
- an eye for an eye in a literal sense is completely illogical and we have established principles for erechin.
Etc.

octopus

Sat, Dec 30 2017, 3:04 pm

BH5745 wrote:

It's the literal word of Hashem. So yes, we believe everything the Torah says.

Yes, we believe everything in the torah, but only a fool would think they understand the torah without the help of the chachamim! There are no extra words in the torah. When bnei yisrael accepted the torah, they accepted the written torah and the oral torah. The oral torah came from Hashem too, it was later written down by the chachamim. People that take the words of the written torah only literally are like the karaim who sat in cold homes and ate cold food on shabbos because the torah says "lo sivaru aish."

octopus

Sat, Dec 30 2017, 3:06 pm

And I dont think the op has a problem with the laws as they are written in the torah. I think op has difficulty understanding some of the stories in tanach. Yes, some of the stories are difficult to understand. But they are not written in the torah like fairy tales. They have a purpose and a reason and teachable lessons.

shoshanim999

Sat, Dec 30 2017, 3:27 pm

BH5745 wrote:

It's the literal word of Hashem. So yes, we believe everything the Torah says.

This obviously isn't so. Very often the mefarshim explain that things aren't actually literal.

imasoftov

Sat, Dec 30 2017, 8:41 pm

pause wrote:

I know rashi was written with ruach hakodesh.

I would like to understand what this belief means. What is the earliest source for it? Does this belief have any consequences, that is, must one who accepts it treat Rashi differently than any other commentator?

PinkFridge

Sun, Dec 31 2017, 6:39 am

OP, last night Rabbi Reisman spoke about women learning.
Context: Yael made 2 halachic decisions, to do an aveirah lishma with Sisra, and NOT to kill him with a weapon which is klei zayin and not for women to use. The shiur started with Devora's praise of Yael, and some chilukim on begged ish/isha and klei zayin; then the concept of aveirah lishma; then the greatness of Yael and her presence of mind.

Which left the last 10+ minutes to a discussion on how women, once they have discretionary time, which of course is well used for chesed and community pursuits, should also carve out time to learn. It was really great, and worth listening to (though if you don't hear it live, there is a charge to download and listen).

etky

Sun, Dec 31 2017, 6:48 am

PinkFridge wrote:

OT, but how does halacha apply to Yael, who wasn't Jewish?

etky

Sun, Dec 31 2017, 6:49 am

imasoftov wrote:

And also, how then do we account for the infinite and often fierce exegetical disputes between Rashi and other commentators, including Rashbam, his own grandson?

PinkFridge

Sun, Dec 31 2017, 7:01 am

etky wrote:

OT, but how does halacha apply to Yael, who wasn't Jewish?

Interesting. I know her husband was Chever Hakeini, among the children of Yisro, but I didn't realize that meant they weren't Jewish.
What were the halachos of a ger toshav?

etky

Sun, Dec 31 2017, 7:08 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Interesting. I know her husband was Chever Hakeini, among the children of Yisro, but I didn't realize that meant they weren't Jewish.
What were the halachos of a ger toshav?

The Druse claim descent from Yitro and I don't think they are bound by anything other than 7 Mitzvot Bnei Noach. I could be wrong though. I really don't know what their status is via halacha or whether it is any different from that of Israeli Arabs and/or Palestinians.
I also have no idea what the story was during the time of the shoftim.
The Keini were allies of the Jews and certainly not one of 7 amei kna'an but beyond that I don't know.