Would this test bother you or your child?

Jewishfoodie

Thu, Jan 18 2018, 7:31 am

May I provide another way to look at this?
I have met many different types of children in my day. Some children, they THRIVE on such tests. It's their dream.

Some children get overwhelmed by such a test (looks too hard/long,) ergo, not something they think they can pass, and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

Then there are those students who LITERALLY cannot do it. Think, child with motor skill issues, (yes! In adults too!) and the test is just a quagmire to her/him. They would need to take this test orally regardless.

So the actual answer is, this test is good for some, great for some and a nightmare for some. There is no one way of "testing" children that encompasses all the childrens' individualistic needs.

Last edited by Jewishfoodie on Thu, Jan 18 2018, 7:51 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Crimson

Thu, Jan 18 2018, 7:31 am

camp wrote:

So as “ the typist” you have no idea if credits are earned or not. You have no idea NYS diploma requirements. Your assumption is that no Judaic subjects are included. That assumption might be wrong.

Yes, I do. Because I went to the same school. And graduated from there. With an accredited regents diploma "with honors" because I took and passed ten regents. But my Judaic studies had nothing to do with that. There was one teacher who's test I failed. (She gave me a P) I got my diploma just the same.

Also, I really don't know what you want from me. Honestly I was asked a question and asked it forward. Would it make you happier to hear that her reply was - so make it multiple choice for me I don't know how to do that type of stuff. I declined because honestly I don't remember the material enough to do such a thing. Now I see most people prefer the longer answers and I will relay that message.
This is a teacher I've kept up with since graduation. She doesn't see me as "the minimum wage idiot typist". She sees me as a regular person with an opinion. Who once took her test. And since she can't walk into the classroom and say "so would you like this test? Should I change anything for you?" She asked me. Pretty simple in my opinion.
This was an opinion - had she not agreed she doesn't have to listen. She agreed with me that it looked scary. Just didn't know what to do about it

amother

Crimson

Thu, Jan 18 2018, 7:34 am

Jewishfoodie wrote:

I'm of the self fulfilling prophecy due to being overwhelmed category. Which I guess is why I reacted as I did. I appreciate your clarity.

She will accommodate those that literally cannot do it I wouldn't worry about that.

amother

Babyblue

Thu, Jan 18 2018, 7:39 am

I think that bec different kids find things differently it us appropriate to give multiple types if questions. I teach a lower academic class. In the midterm I gave 60 true false, multiple choice, short answers with a word bank and than 10 long answers. By the long answers I found most ofv the girls did not put in enough information and I am not sure I will do it again for the final. The girls were very happy with my test and did well.

DrMom

Thu, Jan 18 2018, 7:44 am

In general, I endorse tests which require answers to be written out.

Writing is a critical skill which is not emphasized enough in today's educational system. Too many teachers are lazy and give tests which are easy to mark instead of tests which allow students to demonstrate mastery of the subject.

My only concern would be that the test sounds a little long. 70 questions -- does each require an essay/paragraph to reply, or are some questions merely asking for a short write-in answer?

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, Jan 18 2018, 7:46 am

amother wrote:

Thanks for all your replies. It has definitely enlightened me.
The test time is 1.5 hours. But she taught me a few years ago as well so I know that she will sit with any students who aren't done and answer questions and wait until they finish. So for all practical purposes there is no time limit for answering those questions.
They were not open ended questions. They were very clear and specific. It's not science it's tanach. No room for opinions.
I'm seeing that most people seem to appreciate the long answers but would prefer a shorter less thorough test.
Maybe I'll text her and suggest she allow the girls to choose some "free" questions.

Feel free to add your opinion. You may be helping some students for finals this year Smile

I am puzzled by the bolded. There is no room for opinion in Tanach, but there is room for opinion in science, you say? No, dear, it's more often the other way round.

Here is an example of a case where there's room for opinion in Tanach.
This is from Shmuel 1, 15:27, right after Shmuel has rebuked Shaul for not destroying Amalek completely as Hashem commanded him:

" וַיִּסֹּ֥ב שְׁמוּאֵ֖ל לָלֶ֑כֶת וַיַּחֲזֵ֥ק בִּכְנַף־מְעִיל֖וֹ וַיִּקָּרַֽע
And Shmuel turned to go, and he took hold of the edge of his coat and it tore."

Who grabbed whose coat? There are four possibilities: Shmuel grabbed his own coat, Shaul grabbed his own coat, Shmuel grabbed Shaul's coat, Shaul grabbed Shmuel's coat.

There's plenty of room for opinion here, starting with the Midrash, discussed in Rashi, further discussed by other mefarshim. שבעים פנים לתורה, right?

And while there's room for disagreement on the frontiers of science, most of the science taught in schools is established and accepted. Nobody is challenging the validity of Newton's laws (on earth).

Beyond that: no test is ever going to accurately test the knowledge of a group of people, because it can't cover all material. Even a seventy question test. That is the reality of testing. The real purpose of a test should not be assessment, but encouraging students to review and consolidate their knowledge. You don't need a seventy question test for that either.

amother

Crimson

Thu, Jan 18 2018, 8:02 am

DrMom wrote:

They are all write in no long paragraph answers all ranging from a few words to two lines.

amother

Crimson

Thu, Jan 18 2018, 8:05 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

I am puzzled by the bolded. There is no room for opinion in Tanach, but there is room for opinion in science, you say? No, dear, it's more often the other way round.

Here is an example of a case where there's room for opinion in Tanach.
This is from Shmuel 1, 15:27, right after Shmuel has rebuked Shaul for not destroying Amalek completely as Hashem commanded him:

" וַיִּסֹּ֥ב שְׁמוּאֵ֖ל לָלֶ֑כֶת וַיַּחֲזֵ֥ק בִּכְנַף־מְעִיל֖וֹ וַיִּקָּרַֽע
And Shmuel turned to go, and he took hold of the edge of his coat and it tore."

Who grabbed whose coat? There are four possibilities: Shmuel grabbed his own coat, Shaul grabbed his own coat, Shmuel grabbed Shaul's coat, Shaul grabbed Shmuel's coat.

There's plenty of room for opinion here, starting with the Midrash, discussed in Rashi, further discussed by other mefarshim. שבעים פנים לתורה, right?

And while there's room for disagreement on the frontiers of science, most of the science taught in schools is established and accepted. Nobody is challenging the validity of Newton's laws (on earth).

Beyond that: no test is ever going to accurately test the knowledge of a group of people, because it can't cover all material. Even a seventy question test. That is the reality of testing. The real purpose of a test should not be assessment, but encouraging students to review and consolidate their knowledge. You don't need a seventy question test for that either.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. There are seventy ways of interpreting the Torah. But these questions are more of the where did we learn this (answer is words in a Pasuk) and who does it say this about and where does it say it etc. no room for opinion in these questions

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, Jan 18 2018, 8:36 am

amother wrote:

I understand what you are saying. But I think this is more an issue of test-writing technique than of subject material. A test is good if there is no ambiguity about the type of answer that is required. I often underperformed on tests because I couldn't for the life of me figure out what the teacher wanted.

I had one great test-taking experience in university which taught me a lot about how to get at the ultimate purpose of a test, making sure that students review and consolidate the material. The teacher allowed us to take one 8 X 11 sheet of paper into the final for the course. We could write whatever we wanted on the sheet, as long as it was only that sheet. It also had to be in our handwriting, and it had to be clear that it was our own individual work; the professor checked the sheets.

We had hundreds of pages of notes for the course. It was a hard course. I spent literally days figuring out how to summarize what I might need on the test so it would fit on that one sheet. I had to review the material and really know it. I had to imagine the kinds of questions that might be on the test.

This was a course I had been struggling with. But I aced the test, and more importantly, I learned the material so well that it has stuck with me forever.

I wish I had had the discipline to always use that technique when studying for a test. I didn't because I'm human. Teachers can make students do that; it would make students learn so much more.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jan 18 2018, 8:38 am

A few thoughts:
1. OP, even had you not qualified that you were asked, that you had her as a teacher, etc., I think your voice would be valuable.

2. There is a lost art of test giving. What I'm about to say might not be relevant for a midterm but I think it bears discussing. A test should have several types of questions. There are brief, fill in the blank types. In navi, you could have Al mi o al ma ne'emar, chronologies, matching. Then there also one line short answer questions. The best test maker will also have longer/essay questions, the idea being to get students to manipulate the material, to show mastery, questions like Compare and contrast using 3 specific examples, etc.
I also second giving choices, like answer 3 out of 5 of the following questions.

3. Like I said, the midterm is different. I'm curious. Have you seen her tests change over the years?

amother

Crimson

Thu, Jan 18 2018, 9:25 am

PinkFridge wrote:

1. Thank you for your response respecting me as a human with feelings

2. Minus the long paragraph thought questions the test seems to meet those criteria. So I guess it is fair.

3. The questions obviously change but the style did not change much. I did quite well on that test. But seeing it overwhelmed me. I see I'm in the minority and most would appreciate it.

amother

Slateblue

Thu, Jan 18 2018, 10:20 am

70 questions is way too much, especially for questions that aren't multiple choice/true-false/fill-in-the-blank. It's not even about academic level, it's just not designed well.

Tests aren't supposed to directly address every single thing you covered. There will always be something that doesn't make it into the test. The point is that the students review the entire unit because they don't know what will show up on the test and what won't.

I would suggest way fewer questions, and then two essay questions (on different topics) of which the students pick one to answer. The essay questions are likely to cover more than one item anyway. As are some of the other questions. After all, Tanach is not a vacuum, if you're learning several perakim in a row, there's going to be overlap between concepts and they're usually contextually related somehow. She shouldn't need to ask one question per idea covered in class. Better to ask one question that requires them to recall several ideas covered in class.

amother

Crimson

Thu, Jan 18 2018, 10:25 am

amother wrote:

I'm not sure I agree with you. Because then the test becomes less straightforward. And there's more room for error. Here if you know the information you should be able to do well. Because there is one obviously correct answer per question. Once you combine concepts I'm not sure it stays that way. Do you hear what I'm saying?

Laiya

Thu, Jan 18 2018, 10:29 am

camp wrote:

I’m disturbed by the entire mindset of the op.
In terms of the length of the test, if this is a hs level midterm, then yes, it should be challenging. Some classes, even in the Judaic department the students are credited by the government for the course. There has to be some standards.
There are schools that are academic and actually challenge the minds of our daughters. Are you complaining about that? My daughters are very bright, want to learn, and enjoy challenging tests.
As in any institution, I’m sure in the school you are discussing, there are all types of accommodations for the students who are not up to higher academic levels. Please don’t insinuate our girls can’t be challenged with higher level testing.
Are you just the “typist”? Not sure how that allows you to make comments to the teacher. What are your educational credentials?

Seems like you're making the assumption that tests that don't require long answers are less academic or lower level. I wonder if this is a perception shared by others?

dovebird

Thu, Jan 18 2018, 10:31 am

I loved these types of tests! For a few reasons : 1 the teacher never had patience to read all the answers so I was more likely to get a higher grade 2 I was able to explain myself and train of thought 3 most of the time there was more than one correct answer to the question- so even if I didn't write the answer the teacher wanted I got it marked correct. But 70questions is way too many. Unless it's like a whole day test?!