How do we know that Islam isn't the Chosen Nation?

amother

Coral

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 7:58 pm

The simplest question is, if Judaism can be superseded by Islam, what makes Islam the final word? It ought to be vulnerable to the same problem.

There's a major logical flaw in saying that the Torah must be true because the Torah tells us it's true.

I think that we should acknowledge that Islam has brought much of the world to monotheism, and that's a good thing. Every monotheistic religion believes it's the truth. There's no getting around that, but whatever keeps someone from believing in Judaism is going to keep him from believing in the truth of Christianity and Islam. Our belief comes from something deeper than reason.

amother

Aqua

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 8:12 pm

amother wrote:

Our tradition tells us that we are the chosen nation. That how we know. End Stop.

amother

Denim

Tue, Jan 30 2018, 8:20 pm

Muslims believe in our whole history and in christian history as well . They believe that mohammed was just another tack in the history kind of like lehavdil another moshe rabbeinu coming to bring insight and teach the world what G-d wants. They believe that Jews and christians are just misguided since t hey stopped with their "prophets" and did not take it to the end to the prophet mohammed who is supposed to bring religion to all mankind.

I believe this is a bunch of BS. When a guy comes and says he rode his donkey up to heavens and recieved a message from G_D I check him into the psyche ward.
Yiddishkeit is the only religion that is not man made, that was given overto thousands of witnesses at har sinai and not just one guy who said "hey I'm the new savior!"

chanchy123

Wed, Jan 31 2018, 3:00 am

WhatFor wrote:

Have you read the Koran? I believe the opposite is more accurate.

A few points, I am quite well versed in Islam, although I never studied it officially or read the entire Quran - only excerpts.

Muslims do refer to themselves as a nation. An Islamic nation that surpasses all ethnic identification.

The Quran says a lot of things, it contains a lot of really profound messages, a lot of stories most of us would recognize from the Tanach or from midrash (especially about the childhood of Avraham Avinu).

Many schools of though have stemmed from Islam, some of the greatest scientists and philosophers were Muslim scholars. The Suffis are a peace loving spiritual sect of Islam. Many of our great Jewish scholars learned a lot from Muslims and Islam.

That being said - the Quran is not divine. It is the work of human beings, and it carries a lot of contradictory messages, you can derive almost any message or ideology from the test itself. The Jews are great - the Jews are evil, for instance. Both can be found in the Quran.

The Quran does have a verse ("pasuk") saying that women are less than men and should be subjugated to men. But other messages that say women should be revered. So some adverse treatment of women is cultural and doesn't exist in all Muslim communities, and other treatment is inherent.

No the Quran doesn't call for its followers to blow themselves up on its behalf. Of course not. But the concept of Jihad is very vital to Islam, and Islam was spread by the sword. The concept of martyrdom, is central in Islam. Not all Muslims interpret it as fighting all non-Muslims violently and forcing them to become Muslims. But that was certainly the way Islam has always spread, and people who believe that today and operate along those lines are not interpreting Islam in a false manner. This is a legitimate form of Islam. Again, not all Muslims support terrorism, most are horrified by it, when they consider it non-just (such as against Westerners) - but terrorism can be found in Islam, can be justified by Islam, it is not a distortion of Islam. Another important point is that even most Muslims who are horrified by the concept of terrorism will admit that sometimes terrorism is justified - especially against Jews in Israel.

You can't be Jewish and Muslim. Either you believe in Judaism or you don't. Either you believe in Islam or you don't. There are some great concept in Islam (most of which were borrowed from Judaism Smile

), and it is a great path for gentiles. But it cannot be reconciled with Judaism for Jews.

finallyamommy

Wed, Jan 31 2018, 6:26 am

WhatFor wrote:

Some would argue the following:

The Torah says explicitly that you must follow the whole Torah, never change it at its fundamental level, etc. Both Judaism and Islam proclaim that such Torah was presented to the Jews at har Sinai. It includes all these threats about what happens if you turn away from the Torah.

Islam claims that at some point, the Jews were misbehaving and God handed a new book to Mohammed, who then approached the people of Islam saying they had to follow the new book.

So what kind of God would tell you over and over, to your face, I won't change anything, don't believe any false prophets, and then go around, and change everything?

I've heard the following mashal told in this context: A judge was trying to distribute a contested inheritance between two children. One child comes before the judge and says, "my father came to me in a dream last night, and said you should give me all of the inheritance." To which the judge responded, "if your father wanted me to give you the inheritance, why didn't he just come to me?"

Even if one were to believe that God would change the Torah after he promised he wouldn't, why wouldn't he redo the Sinai revelation? Only a cruel God would appear to you personally to tell you to follow a doctrine he'll never change, you shouldn't believe anyone else who tells you to do otherwise, and then punish you later for failing to listen to someone he explicitly told you not to believe.

This.

Also, another point to ponder (which may have been mentioned already - I didn't read all the responses)

If G-d actually jerks people around so much - remember, Islam also believes that the Christian god was a prophet as well, such that apparently he said "Yiddishkeit is it - no, wait, never mind, Christianity - no wait, Islam is My REAL truth!"...

...so if he's so fickle, what's going to stop him from changing his mind yet again? Personally, I'd be worried that Islam is not actually the last of it.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jan 31 2018, 8:47 am

finallyamommy wrote:

Yes. And what works for me is, as has been mentioned, the fact that our narrative says that our religion started with a revelation to all the millions who were part of the people, not some one person privately.

This is probably not the type of answer OP is looking for, but I can't help but think about this: A Christian told a Jew that all the Jews who died in the Holocaust are locked out of heaven because they weren't saved. The Jew said, You mean even innocent babies who were burned alive in massive graves? The Christian said, Yes. The Jew said, "I'm going to hell with the babies."

I'm sticking with my peeps.

Mommyg8

Wed, Jan 31 2018, 8:53 am

PinkFridge wrote:

PF, I just love this, thanks for posting!

WhatFor

Wed, Jan 31 2018, 3:55 pm

tichellady wrote:

Have you read the Torah? The Torah and Koran are both very violent. Have you read the New Testament? Not so violent. Who actually terrorized the world for most of human history? The Christians. I don’t think reading other people’s sacred texts is the way to evaluate their behavior

I'm not using it to evaluate people's behavior. I'm actually saying the exact opposite. A poster said that the violence was cultural and not religious. I believe that the violence stems from the religion but that the reason most Muslims don't follow that is cultural. (I have plenty of muslim friends, none of whom would endorse violence. But that's despite the doctrine of Islam.)

I agree that the doctrines of the other abrahamic are also violent. OP is apparently talking to someone who is asking how we know the doctrine of Islam is not right. So I was responding to that point. Do I believe other religions also endorse violence? Yes. But that's not the question here.

tichellady

Wed, Jan 31 2018, 6:36 pm

WhatFor wrote:

I understand what you are saying but I’m not sure how it helps the op who wants to know how to explain Islam is wrong and Judaism is right. If the answer is that it’s because the Koran is violent, then any thoughtful person would respond “ well isn’t the Torah violent”?

WhatFor

Mon, Feb 05 2018, 12:14 am

tichellady wrote:

I agree. I was addressing the op's title, which was about Islam being right. Out of respect for the rules of this forum, I won't get into the "but Judaism is right" prong. In any case, I believe we already have a whole bunch of threads on that topic Wink

mandksima

Mon, Feb 05 2018, 2:48 am

Parshat Bechukotei (26:44) says "But despite all this, when they are in the lands of their enemies, I will not despise them nor will I reject them to obliterate them, to break My covenant with them, for I am Hashem their G-d." Hashem's word is forever.

There's so much written in the Torah and commentaries about Yishmael, especially pertaining to the End of Days when a people who were once tribal nomads become a major power. I just happened to listen to this eye opening shiur last night: The Rise of Yishmael at the end of days

Thousands of years ago, before Islam was even a religion, certain prophesies were made regarding the Islam of today. It would helpful to learn about why Avraham had Yishmael and why he is necessary in the geula process. Rabbi Mendel Kessin also has lots of videos on this subject.

This seems relevant as well: "For Hashem will not forsake His people and His heritage He will not abandon." Tehillim 94:14

amother

Coral

Mon, Feb 05 2018, 3:09 am

mandksima wrote:

For those who believe in the Torah, the Torah is proof. But otherwise, it's totally irrelevant. The Qur'an also claims to be the final, eternal word of Allah. So what?

imasoftov

Mon, Feb 05 2018, 6:18 am

tichellady wrote:

Here's a smaller version of the same idea. He goes on for a minute or so about Chanukah candles but it's necessary set-up for what he gets to at about 1:20 in

fmt4

Mon, Feb 05 2018, 9:36 am

amother wrote:

I believe this is a bunch of BS. When a guy comes and says he rode his donkey up to heavens and recieved a message from G_D I check him into the psyche ward.
Yiddishkeit is the only religion that is not man made, that was given overto thousands of witnesses at har sinai and not just one guy who said "hey I'm the new savior!"

So would you say that all the people who believe that a man will ride into town one day on a donkey and tell us that he is our messiah and that we will all fly on eagle’s wings to Israel should be checked into a psyche ward? That would have to be one big ward...