Accord. to liberals, any other factors to school shootings?

PinkFridge

Fri, Feb 23 2018, 11:20 am

Raisin wrote:

Lots of gun deaths are in inner cities. Not the ones you might see splashed across the news, because 15 year old dies in crossfire from drug war is not as exciting as 17 teens die in a suburban school.

One can say - as again, Tehillim 127:1, one shouldn't delude oneself - that "I'll stay out of the dangerous neighborhoods, my kids aren't going to those schools." Those neighborhoods and schools are marginalized in the minds of many. And it's come to be considered a sad norm, not an aberration. Kids being shot up in a school by a crazed person who doesn't have a specific beef with the individual victims, who aren't in any crossfire because "they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and too close to the intended victim" is an aberration and is seen as preventable.

Which brings me to my answer to the OP's question. No, I'm not a liberal, but the NRA scares me, and my answer is one which I think liberals would agree with: we need better enforcement of existing laws, even as/if we work towards more restrictions and guidelines.

simcha2

Fri, Feb 23 2018, 5:03 pm

Mevater wrote:

If availability of guns is the main problem leading to school violence, why arent any religious schools experiencing gun violence?

Guns of all types are just as available to students of all religious schools.

Because the number of school shootings is actually very small, especially if you are talking mass school shootings like parkland and Sandy hook, not incidents involving guns in schools (child brings a gun, but doesn't discharge, armed guards gun discharge nut accident, suicides). It is less than 15 mass shootings (where 3 or more people were killed at schools). The number of public schools is huge. Religious schools make us a small number of U.S. schools. Statistically it is impossible to draw a conclusion.

allthingsblue

Sat, Feb 24 2018, 7:37 pm

Mevater wrote:

Your questions make you sound naive.

How many religious people do you know who have guns?
If statistically guns are less prevalent among the Jewish community, then shootings will be less too.

Guns are not the only issue. Far from it. There are serious education and mental health issues that need to be addressed. But why give poorly educated, mentally ill people such EASY access to do their sick crimes?
If they had to use a knife, they most likely be deterred, fought off or caught in time in MANY cases.

tigerwife

Sat, Feb 24 2018, 7:48 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

Not on topic, but I know a decent amount of frum people with guns. Think run-of-the-mill, tristate type. They do not advertise it necessarily.

My biggest issue with the gun discussion is the politicization. I think every American agrees that the laws need to be tighter and that we have an issue. It is ridiculous that belonging to one party or another creates a distraction of buzz words and witty tweets and automatic disagreement with opponents who have the same end goal.

Hashem_Yaazor

Sat, Feb 24 2018, 9:24 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

But at least 17 people won't die at once.
Stabbings will kill fewer people at a time.
Car rammings will kill fewer people.
Guns can kill so many people in such a short time!

You can with bombs, CH"V, and you don't need permits to get the stuff to make bombs.

Columbine would have been much, much worse if the boys' original plan had succeeded, they had tried blowing up the cafeteria and when that failed, they went in the school with their guns (and pipe bombs). The Oklahoma bombing was caused by a truck bomb. The boys wanted to mimic and do more damage than that (probably why they did it on April 20th, OK was April 19th). It is not unfeasible to assume that some kids will try going other routes if they can't get guns.

Identifying mental health factors is crucial, but that alone is not always reliable Sad

allthingsblue

Sat, Feb 24 2018, 9:52 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

So what is your point?
That we should let them have easy access to guns because otherwise they'll bomb the place?
It's a lot easier to pull a trigger on a gun than to plan and execute a bombing.

Fox

Sat, Feb 24 2018, 11:50 pm

As more details emerge, it appears that the violence in Parkland was a huge, colossal failure of law enforcement and social services going back months, if not years. All of the laws necessary to have prevented this tragedy were already on the books. Various law enforcement agencies received multiple warnings, including calls from the family with whom the shooter lived.

Social workers for Florida's Department of Children were actively engaged with the shooter and had documented that he was engaged in self-mutilation in 2016. That's an adequate trigger for involuntary commitment, which would have prevented the shooter from acquiring weapons. Yet it was never followed up on because, according to one investigator, the teenager was "wearing long sleeves" at a subsequent interview.

The Broward County Sheriff's Department responded to over 40 calls in the last 7 years to the shooter's home for issues like domestic disturbances and a mentally ill person.

Changing gun laws -- whether we make big, sweeping changes or merely tweak them -- won't work if law enforcement and social service agencies are too disorganized or too apathetic to enforce them.

I recently interviewed NYC Commissioner for the Administration of Child Services, David Hansell, as part of a freelance job. In prepping for the interview, I read up on the history of ACS and the high-profile deaths that resulted in Mr. Hansell's appointment. I also learned about ChildStat, the case-conferencing system that uses data models to identify and prioritize high-risk situations.

ChildStat, according to Mr. Hansell, makes sure professionals in the ACS are paying attention to the right cases -- and makes sure that everyone is in the loop regarding those cases.

There is absolutely no reason why every child services agency, community mental health agency, and law enforcement agency aren't using versions of data models that let them cross-reference information and help them see patterns. The Parkland shooter hit every possible red flag, yet "the Abishter was in charge," and it was apparently no one's job to put together the pieces.

Here's an excellent thread by journalist Ari Schulman with links embedded that addresses what we could be doing this minute -- without any changes to existing laws -- to prevent another Parkland:

Twitter -- @AriSchuman

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Feb 26 2018, 4:58 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

So what is your point?
That we should let them have easy access to guns because otherwise they'll bomb the place?
It's a lot easier to pull a trigger on a gun than to plan and execute a bombing.

No, I'm just saying there are many factors that all have to be addressed, and just limiting purchase of guns (which I am yes in favor of, BTW!) doesn't automatically make things safe. We have a thread here about other factors to school shooting and I believe the gun is an easy target (pardon the non-intentional pun) but it's just a symptom. I don't think people who are mentally sane and have consciences without a religious motive will shoot up a school just because they have access to guns. We have to try to identify those at risk for committing atrocities and get them the proper health, in addition to making it hard for them to obtain guns. But to think we'd be safe with gun control is wishful thinking. The Columbine massacre did happen with lots of planning and it's not crazy to think kids who are completely off kilter will fantasize how to cause destruction, and will indeed research how to make bombs if they can't get guns. We have to address all this on many levels.

And to Mommyg8, I also agree things like that should not be on the web. Neither should be lots of information on the perpetrators that can cause a sickening idol effect on other teens, nor much detail of what happened so that copycats can come along...

Miri7

Mon, Feb 26 2018, 5:37 pm

I don't think that changing gun laws is the only answer, though I think that improving gun control is necessary, but not sufficient to prevent attacks at schools and like the one in Las Vegas.

Both of those were committed by people who legally owned guns.

Gun Control:
I think we need the changes below, obviously they need to be enforced or they would be meaningless:

- prohibition on automatic and semiautomatic weapons. They allow for too much damage too fast, so it's hard to neutralize a shooter before they kill a lot of people.

- Raise the age for gun purchase to 21. Limit the number of guns one person can own.

- Do like Israel and require all persons to obtain a license and then renew every 3 years, with background checks and mental health assessments at the outset and at each renewal.

- Require gun owners to prove that they have a gun safe at home.

- Require insurance for all gun owners. Impose liability on gun owners for damage done by their gun, unless they have reported the gun stolen. We allow the free market to determine the cost of doing a lot of things, so why not let the free market determine the cost of owning and insuring a gun? Also, if a child is harmed with a gun you own, game over, you never get to own a gun again.

-Strict penalties for a person in possession of an unlicensed firearm. As a liberal, I realize that this will could have a huge disproportionate impact on communities of color.

-Massive national buy-back program. Get some of these billionaires to pick up the tab. They can establish a fund and each person surrendering a gun to law enforcement will get a check. Have a period for the buy-back program that ends when the strict licensure/insurance rules take effect.

- Maintain a database of gun licenses. This will allow us to know if someone is stockpiling weapons. It would also be a clearinghouse for info, so if local law enforcement or the FBI receives a tip on someone, their record will be flagged and they may lose their gun license and have their firearms removed.

Mental Health/Social Services/Law Enforcement:

- We need to adequately fund schools so they have guidance counselors who are able to do their job, and will work with law enforcement if needed when a student is sending up a lot of red flags. We also need to adequately fund other social programs, CPS, etc, so they can also do their jobs and coordinate with law enforcement as needed.

-We also need to adequately fund law enforcement so they can do their jobs well and have time to check up on gunowners who get red-flagged. More funding for community policing, so officers can invest more time in the communities they serve, as everyone is better of with a reduction in violence.

- Invest heavily in communities that have a lot of gun violence - invest in the kids who don't have strong families and communities around to supervise, guide, and mentor them. Give kids in disadvantaged communities more opportunities to succeed and break the cycle of violence, including helping out single moms, grandparents raising grandkids, etc. (This isn't aimed at mass school shootings, but more at inner-city type of shootings, which occur all too often.)

- increase mental health services for everyone. We are all better off when people's mental health needs are being met, and a professional is able to identify someone who's really unstable.

School Security
- I feel like this is likely the least effective strategy, unless we fence in all schools and have metal detectors, double doors, etc where you have to be buzzed in. It still won't address shootings in movie theaters or like the one in las vegas.

Fox

Mon, Feb 26 2018, 7:02 pm

Miri7 wrote:

. . . if local law enforcement or the FBI receives a tip on someone, their record will be flagged and they may lose their gun license and have their firearms removed.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but none of this will make any difference if the tip sits on somebody's desk. There's no evidence that lack of time or lack of funding was an issue in the Parkland shooting.

Instead, the FBI claims they weren't able to verify the real identity of the individual, which is interesting, since it took 4chan less than an hour.

Nor will all the mental health services in the world be effective if a social worker, armed with the knowledge that someone has engaged in self-mutilation, doesn't ask the individual to roll up his sleeves.

There are plenty of things that probably should change systemically, but this wasn't a situation where the system failed. The system worked fine; it was the people who failed.