When Hebrew teachers make ALL non jews look bad

hadasa

Sun, Sep 28 2008, 5:03 pm

Kinneret, what you wrote about parents teaching the children is not necessarily true. Children have a tendency to view things in black and white and 'good guys and bad guys ' much more than the adults around them. Speaking from experience, both as the child and the parent.
It is also possible that your obvious sensitivity to this issue causes you to perceive hostility where there is none.
I still find it hard to understand your problem with "superiority ", since you seem to agree that Jews have a spiritual advantage, if only because of Matan Torah. So then what is your point exactly? That this extra connection to Hashem is a gift from above and we didn't do anything personally to deserve it? That it is possible for a Jew to fall morally lower than a non-Jew? I haven't seen anyone argue against these points, especially since you do agree that even such a Jew retains his "Jewishness" and his inclusion in the Covenant with G-d.

Kinneret

Thu, Oct 02 2008, 4:10 pm

Hadasa, I apologize for my belated responses to your questions. Things have been a little crazy around home, and I've not had much time for the really important things in life- like Imamother Smile

hadasa wrote:

I don't disagree with you here, but I think, because of the tendency of children to see things in black and white, it is incumbent upon the adults in their lives to take pains to explain shades of gray to them. Several people in this thread, for instance, have discussed things being taught to their children in school, and these things are being presented to the children in a very black and white way. I do not think this is an unusual phenomenon, and I think it creates enmity where there need be none.

Quote:

It is also possible that your obvious sensitivity to this issue causes you to perceive hostility where there is none.

While this is an issue about which I am sensitive, I don't think it makes me incapable of determining the difference between insults (and seriously, had you heard some of the things I've heard, I suspect you'd agree they are beyond the pale of acceptable comments about other human beings) and statements of what one might call "otherness," which are not necessarily insulting.

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I still find it hard to understand your problem with "superiority ", since you seem to agree that Jews have a spiritual advantage, if only because of Matan Torah. So then what is your point exactly?

I think it is dangerous to think of entire groups of people as inferior beings. Also, I honestly do not understand the need to call ourselves (and this holds true for any group of people) superior to other people. If a parent has many children but has a special relationship with one of those children, it follows that this child may be more beloved and may have a special advantage, but it does not follow that this child is a superior being. Do you see the distinction I am trying to make?

I think assuming we're inherently superior beings, in spite of the fact that G-d did not choose us because of our merits, is not only problematic in terms of how we relate to other human beings, but it seems to me, it is an almost unconscious attempt to mitigate our own problems, both individual and communal.

hadasa

Sat, Oct 04 2008, 4:00 pm

Kinneret wrote:

As other posters have pointed out, a simple course in Jewish history automatically gives a child the impression that most non jews are bad. No matter what you say, the fact remains that the Jewish nation has suffered terribly throughout history at the hands of both rulers and neighbors. So although I agree that children need to be taught to respect the people they come in contact with, they will still be influenced by history.

Quote:

(and seriously, had you heard some of the things I've heard, I suspect you'd agree they are beyond the pale of acceptable comments about other human beings)

well, yes, some things are unacceptable, and I'm not justifying them.

to be continued...

hadasa

Sat, Oct 04 2008, 4:45 pm

Now we have come to the crux of the issue. I will try to explain my POV to the best of my ability.

Quote:

There is a difference. I would not say that non-Jews are inferior, but that Jews are superior. IOW, it's not that they are sub-human, it's that they are merely human while we, in addition to being human, have an extra, Divine dimension. It is human to be motivated primarily by self-interest. Most of us are also motivated by self-interest most of the time. According to Chassidus, if I give money to a poor man because I feel sorry for him and cannot bear to see him suffer, I am also motivated by self-interest. Only a Jew, however, is capable of fulfilling a Mitzvah just because it's G-d's will, with no personal reasons whatsoever.

Quote:

If a parent has many children but has a special relationship with one of those children, it follows that this child may be more beloved and may have a special advantage, but it does not follow that this child is a superior being. Do you see the distinction I am trying to make?

True, but if the parent is Hashem, and He has given us a special mission, then He has also given us the spiritual powers to fulfill this mission, powers He has not given to others.

Quote:

I think assuming we're inherently superior beings, in spite of the fact that G-d did not choose us because of our merits, is not only problematic in terms of how we relate to other human beings, but it seems to me, it is an almost unconscious attempt to mitigate our own problems, both individual and communal.

He did not choose us because we are superior. We are superior because He chose us, and instilled within us a part of the Divine. That does not mean we have no Faults or problems. When our human side overcomes and conceals the Divine within us, then we are worse than the non-Jew, for we have a far greater responsibility.

TzenaRena

Sat, Oct 04 2008, 9:50 pm

Kinneret wrote:

Only Jews are called "banim lamakom" as it says "Beni Bechori Yisroel"(Shemos 4:22). "Banim atem la'Hashem elokeichem"(Devarim 14:1).
So that you are comparing things that exist on two different planes, and they are not comparable.

In addition to that, before MATAN TORAH, Jews were called Bonim, from Matan Torah and on, Hashem bestowed upon us an additional quality that our connection to Hashem is much deeper than that of a father and child, the state of being Chosen. "Atah V'chartonu mikol hoamim " "habocher b'amo yisroel b'ahavah".

To understand these qualities, we need to examine them from a deeper perspective, be"zhashem..

Kinneret

Sat, Oct 04 2008, 10:39 pm

hadasa wrote:

As other posters have pointed out, a simple course in Jewish history automatically gives a child the impression that most non jews are bad.

With all due respect, this is not true. I and many other Jews have studied Jewish history without coming away with the idea that all non-Jews are bad.

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No matter what you say, the fact remains that the Jewish nation has suffered terribly throughout history at the hands of both rulers and neighbors.

I have not said anything to the contrary, and so I am puzzled by the phrase "no matter what you say," as used here.

Kinneret

Sat, Oct 04 2008, 10:53 pm

hadasa wrote:

Now we have come to the crux of the issue. I will try to explain my POV to the best of my ability.

Quote:

There is a difference. I would not say that non-Jews are inferior, but that Jews are superior.

Personally, I don't really see the difference between saying "I am superior to those who are not like me," and saying "those who are not like me are inferior."

Quote:

It is human to be motivated primarily by self-interest. Most of us are also motivated by self-interest most of the time. According to Chassidus, if I give money to a poor man because I feel sorry for him and cannot bear to see him suffer, I am also motivated by self-interest. Only a Jew, however, is capable of fulfilling a Mitzvah just because it's G-d's will, with no personal reasons whatsoever.

What if the act of charity is not motivated by mitigating your suffering in feeling sorry for the recipient? What if you perform an act of charity simply because you believe it to be the right thing to do or because you believe it is what G-d wants you to do? Is that self-interest? If not, then I'd have to contend anyone could do a good deed without personal motivation. Also, couldn't it be argued we could get great personal satisfaction from fulfilling a Mitzvah because it's G-d's will.

TBC...

hadasa

Sun, Oct 05 2008, 2:24 am

Kinneret wrote:

Quote:

No matter what you say, the fact remains that the Jewish nation has suffered terribly throughout history at the hands of both rulers and neighbors.

I have not said anything to the contrary, and so I am puzzled by the phrase "no matter what you say," as used here.

I meant that no matter what you say to the child, he will still get this impression from history.
You say this is not necessarily true. I personally, as a parent and teacher of young children, find that the mere combination of the stories of Purim, Pesach and Chanukah, coupled with Chassidic tales about Paritzim, Cantonists and Communists, not to mention the Holocaust, are hard to counteract.
Yet, I agree, it is the parents' and teachers' task to make a concerted effort to teach children respect towards every human being

Kinneret

Sun, Oct 05 2008, 3:32 pm

Motek wrote:

Kinneret wrote:

Not one of those quotes makes any claim that Jews are superior to other people.

you're funny Tongue Out

What I am, I know, is annoyingly literal, so for me, saying nice things about people or saying one admires a groups of people is not the same thing as saying those people are superior to all others. Regardless of my penchant for literalism, the fact remains that Churchill, Tolstoy, Adams, etc. did not believe themselves or the groups with which they identified as inferior to Jews.

Kinneret

Sun, Oct 05 2008, 3:33 pm

hadasa wrote:

Kinneret wrote:

Quote:

No matter what you say, the fact remains that the Jewish nation has suffered terribly throughout history at the hands of both rulers and neighbors.

I have not said anything to the contrary, and so I am puzzled by the phrase "no matter what you say," as used here.

Ah, I see what you meant by the phrase. Again, I can say my experiences as student and parent and my mother's experience as student, parent and teacher has been different from yours. We seem to agree completely on the need to teach respect Smile

Motek

Sun, Oct 05 2008, 7:44 pm

Kinneret wrote:

If that's what you read, "nice things about people", then we weren't reading the same thread. The quotes in that thread very obviously extol the Jewish people. They were not talking about themselves. They were noting the extraordinary qualities of the Jewish people as compared to all other peoples and races (for if these were common traits among other people, there would be no point in singling out the Jews). And yes, if the Jewish people stand out for those qualities, then in their opinion, other people don't. You may like to use a different word for it but in my dictionary, the word "superior" is a perfect fit.

Kinneret

Sun, Oct 05 2008, 9:24 pm

Motek wrote:

Kinneret wrote:

Yes, Motek. I see a difference between admiring people and seeing those people as superior. It is simply not correct to say Churchill or John Adams, etc. felt Jews were superior to other people. Adams, for example, while he admired the Jewish people, felt we were candidates for conversion to Christianity- not to mention the fact that Adams was one of the earliest proponents of the idea that all people are equal.