What's your opinion:Are women and men inherently different?

amother

Copper

Wed, Jul 25 2018, 7:12 pm

tigerwife wrote:

I believe men and women are inherently different. I actually think that women are the stronger and more capable sx, based on what their bodies can create and do. In the past, women were considered weaker in general mainly based off societal norms. How many women have you seen fainting at bad news like a century or two ago? It is true that physical strength is largely granted to males based off their general physique, but there are countless tasks society does besides shlepping and lifting.

Ironically, today I see this heading in the opposite direction. Put a woman in a male-dominated workforce and she can blossom and rise (at least until the glass ceiling) while still taking care of her family and home. Yet countless “humorous” articles and videos describe the follies of a man needing to take over his wife for the day (or even do a grocery run without her). From a young age, many men are brainwashed to believe they are incapable of sweeping a room or frying an egg. Au contraire, today’s generation is flooded with female empowerment. I wonder how this will all play out in another generation or two.

(And yes, I know I’ve included some generalizations myself. But the strength in creating and nurturing a baby via pregnancy and breastfeeding is a fact.)

I think you just argued the point that social-emotional differences are more cultural and societal (I.e. the result of upbringing and societal expectations) than inherent.

tigerwife

Wed, Jul 25 2018, 7:52 pm

amother wrote:

I think you just argued the point that social-emotional differences are more cultural and societal (I.e. the result of upbringing and societal expectations) than inherent.

To a point. Read my last sentence. Both s-xes can be raised to do everything; however only one is capable in physically creating new life and sustaining it.

ETA- it looks like I missed that we are talking about emotional needs and not capabilities. It’s difficult for me to answer as in general DH and I are opposite of stereotypical standards. However, there is a depth of emotional thinking I have that I do see way more in women than in men.

Last edited by tigerwife on Wed, Jul 25 2018, 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Chocolate

Wed, Jul 25 2018, 7:53 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Copper, I would love to continue this conversation via pm...

But to start a response: my husband and I equally like to cook, we equally hate to clean. We both like childcare, even though he has always had more patience then me...

But I believe that someone should be home to raise the kids (at least some of the time), and as life turned out it ended up being me. At least in my case, it was a combination of biological wiring (I was the one pregnant and nursing) and only somewhat societal conditioning (of which there wasn't much in my case). I also have difficult pregnancies, which doesn't help matters much, either.

I would truly love to know how anyone can make this work. I don't mean that I would work full time while dh would be a stay at home dad, that would, in my mind, be a role reversal, not an egalitarian marriage. I want equality, not role reversal. And given the different biological natures of men and women, I'm still not sure how that can happen.

I'm not sure how this conversation went from a discussion about 'inherent differences' and ended up in gender roles and marriage.

Honestly - I've thrown out entirety the concept of 'role', as it relates to me and my husband. I focus on the word 'responsibility'. Life isn't a play.

Mommyg8

Wed, Jul 25 2018, 8:14 pm

amother wrote:

You're right, I didn't realize we went off topic.

So... back to the original op - I dont think that men and women are different emotionally, especially if you count anger as an emotion.

I think that it does at some point go back to biology -- all those pregnancy hormones, monthly fluctuation of hormones, etc can make women seem more emotional than men. And feeling sick during pregnancy, waking up multiple times during the night for babies and not-such-babies can make women feel pretty cranky also.

Take away those factors, and I think that men are the more emotional sx Smile

4pom

Wed, Jul 25 2018, 8:20 pm

There are male and female qualities in spiritual/ emotional/ Physical worlds.
Cultural and social views of male and female are not always based on the spiritual truths.
Every human has both masculine and feminine qualities to different degrees. For those whose majority match their physical - life is simpler.
Understanding the spiritual energy of masculinity and femininity is eye opening and at least for me makes the chaos and misunderstandings disappear.
So to answer the OP. MALE AND FEMALE HAVE VERY DIFFERENT SPIRITUAL Qualities.
(OOPS excuse the caps. ) I’m on phone.
As to specific men and women- it really depends. You can generalize if you dare. But I prefer to stay with the conceptual.

amother

Chocolate

Wed, Jul 25 2018, 8:39 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

So are pregnant women inherently different than non-pregnant women - and are those differences consistent?

amother

Chocolate

Wed, Jul 25 2018, 8:41 pm

4pom wrote:

What are you reading / whats the source of the understanding?

Mommyg8

Wed, Jul 25 2018, 8:52 pm

amother wrote:

So are pregnant women inherently different than non-pregnant women - and are those differences consistent?

It depends how you define inherent. It's certainly a biological difference - men don't get pregnant.

Are you asking if those hormonal fluctuations are consistent across the board? In my opinion, based on my life experience, the answer is yes.

Now if men were to get pregnant....

amother

Chocolate

Wed, Jul 25 2018, 9:09 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

When you compared men and women you heavily referenced pregnancy hormones - as a contributing factor to the difference.

Inherent - existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.

As in a pregnant woman is inherently more emotional than the non-pregnant version of herself.

Or, Inherent in being pregnant is being an emotional wreck.

(I would say both of the above are false).

So back to the Original question - are there "inherent' things about being a woman other than the defining biological attributes.

amother

Amethyst

Thu, Jul 26 2018, 12:07 am

iyar wrote:

We're playing with semantics here.
The term used is "isha nikneis" the literal translation being "a woman is acquired".
(I will be happy to hear a different translation if someone would like to offer one.)
You are correct that there are major differences between this acquisition and the acquisition of property according to Jewish law; she definitely cannot be sold the way property is sold.

There's a lot to be said about women in Halacha. I don't like to offer generalizations and theories when this is far from my area of expertise. I don't like when other people to it either (often to further an agenda with a little carelessness regarding the facts).
It's also not always a great idea to confuse anecdotal evidence (my baby boy loves his pink blankie) with cold hard facts.
Emmes, as I noted in a different thread, is often elusive.

Lomdisha learning of gemara is all about discussing semantics and figuring out exactly what is meant by the semantics. Thus, when men learn gemara, they will try to define exactly what is "acquired" in marriage. Is it the woman herself? Is it some part of her? So yes, the literal meaning of the phrase is "a woman is acquired" but no one actually thinks that the entire woman is "acquired". My dh told me that he once gave a chaburah on exactly what is "acquired" - since medoraysa the husband doesn't get any rights over the woman other than the right to relations. In other words, figuring out the meaning of the term "a woman is acquired" was the subject of a high-level chaburah since the "translation" seems straightforward but the meaning behind the statement is not as straightforward as you would think.

amother

Amethyst

Thu, Jul 26 2018, 12:12 am

NovelConcept wrote:

I think it's just one level of interpenetrating it. There is always pshat, remez, sod, etc.
Plus they say there are 70 facets to understanding Torah.

There is so much to be taken out of every single word in Torah, so many lessons.

As support to the idea, from what I've seen, sources in Kabbalah indicate that the chet of Chava only actualized a situation that was already present in creation in the higher realms from before the chet.

farm

Thu, Jul 26 2018, 11:00 am

There are certain innate personality traits that tend to exist more in one gender versus another. I think it would be difficult to say it's purely based on sociatal or environmental factors and not an inherent biological difference. For example, road rage or serial killing is almost exclusively male.

amother

Silver

Thu, Jul 26 2018, 11:09 am

InnerMe wrote:

So then you are still excluding it. Because absent of socialization, you don't think that gender in a vacuum would create different emotional needs.

I went to college and work with non Jewish people mostly. I don't have any contact to frum Jewish men besides my husband and family so I didn't start a study on frum men nor will I ever start one.
But from my observation I would definitely say that society makes people. In the real world men are encouraged to show emotion, to not always be the tough guy, and feminism is definitely taking away that weight off their shoulder that they have to provide etc.
Women are encouraged to be strong, to take care of themselves and be independent etc.
I think those expectations change people. They definitely changed me. I grew up so sheltered.. for me it was clear I was going to marry young, have kids and be a good wife. That wasn't possible, since my husband couldn't provide for us. Being out there in the real world totally changed me. I view myself as strong and I'm much more independent than I ever thought I would be. I don't expect my husband to be the strong guy that never cries and just fixed all situations like I did before. And I see how it changed him because he isn't pressured into this "manly" role anymore.
Whether that's right or wrong.. I don't know. But I do know that the frum world puts an immense amount of pressure on both genders to fulfill their roles and not think outside of the box. And we all know some women who "think like a man" and some men who are sensitive and "think like a woman". So I don't think people are born very manly or whatever. They are raised that way.

4pom

Thu, Jul 26 2018, 11:46 am

amother wrote:

What are you reading / whats the source of the understanding?

I’m actually kind of shocked that what I wrote about different masculine/ feminine spiritual traits is not well known
The understanding if it may be harder but its basic judaism. Gd is genderless the shechina is the feminine manifestation...
theres so much in gemarah and you dont even have to look at chassidus. And kabbalistic ideas are of course full of this.
I find it so sad and shocking that after a frum education people need to ask for a source. Im sure any BT would have learned this.

Sorry for being harsh I’m simply shocked

amother

Chocolate

Thu, Jul 26 2018, 12:00 pm

4pom wrote:

You are shocked? You said in your post you found it 'eye opening'.

(and frum education has taught me that we are a religion that sources everything.)

4pom

Thu, Jul 26 2018, 2:03 pm

amother wrote:

You are shocked? You said in your post you found it 'eye opening'.

(and frum education has taught me that we are a religion that sources everything.)

it was eye opening when I learnt it as a teenager ... ( to age myslef- over 20 yrs ago).

As for sources- to me its like asking for basic Jewish principals.

I’ll try dig some up later

ETA. - as someone else mentioned in the other thread “the Moons lost light” will have lots of sources. But it takes this fact as a given ( will give you sources) and takes the ideas much further!

Mommyg8

Thu, Jul 26 2018, 2:17 pm

farm wrote:

I read somewhere that the actual murder or crime rate is the same for women, but a. their method is different, and b. the conviction rate is much lower (in other words, there is a tendency to let women off the hook).

amother

Chocolate

Thu, Jul 26 2018, 2:20 pm

4pom wrote:

And basic Jewish principals we have sources for too.

Mommyg8

Thu, Jul 26 2018, 2:22 pm

4pom wrote:

There are tons of sources for the masculine and feminine traits in each neshama, the Maharal writes extensively about this. Like you mentioned, the shechina is referred to in feminine form. But what is interesting to me is how inanimate objects are often given a gender - such as land is referred to in the feminine. You're right, we didn't learn this in school, and I agree with you - we should have.

4pom

Thu, Jul 26 2018, 4:57 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I think theres depth and spiritual significance to that too The - inanimate objects being assigned a gender. Wish I had time now to look up examples. Perhaps land is feminine as it receives the rain... and then produces ... its literally the chomer