Defining ourselves as conservative or liberal

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 11:19 am

southernbubby wrote:

Whatever type of surgery that it was made this man into a pseudo-woman so whether we call it sx reassignment or gender reassignment doesn't change the fact that Christine was castrated to become "female".

As far as changing race and culture, lots of non-Muslims became Muslim and embraced that culture. Race can't change but culture can and to an extent, possibly gender. The transgender person probably won't be typical of the gender that they are becoming.

I am not sure what people did 4000 years ago but the Torah mentions homozexuality and there were also males who were castrated for various reasons so more than likely, society changed but some of these variations always existed in one form or another.

Re your first paragraph - I was discussing the concept of gender as being separate from sx. So that a person can identify as female and keep all original plumbing, so to speak, intact. Do you really want such a person using the female restroom? Because I don't. There were all kinds of meshugayim all through the ages who did crazy things. Somebody who would voluntarily castrate themselves is obviously a meshugane, let's call a spade a spade. Often this was done to people for political reasons, as you are aware.

Islam is a religion. Yes, it's possible to change your religion, but not your race. Hitler showed us that.

I just can't see gender as something that is separate from sx, is what I've been trying to say.

Anyway, before the changes in modern medicine surgery was extremely dangerous and often led to death, not to mention the lack of anaesthesia. And they didn't have artificial hormones either. The transgender person in 2018 is completely a modern construct, created by the miracles of modern science. Such a feat would not have been medically possible before, let's say, a hundred years ago.

Fox

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 11:20 am

marina wrote:

Fox, I think our conversations will go better if we establish what we agree on first.

Oh, I've got it all worked out. As soon as we get our act together, we're going to start appearing on the frum ladies' lecture circuit, headlining hachnosos kallah fundraisers, sisterhood events, and the like. The posters can show our avatars in boxing gloves: "You've Followed Their Take-Downs on Imamother! Now See Them Battle in Person!"

Sequoia will moderate, and the first hour will be boring questions and answers -- stuff like, "What time should I put my kids to bed?" We'll look at each other, shrug, and say things like, "I dunno -- early enough that they'll get up before noon, but not so early that they wake you at 4 a.m."

The audience will be a little disappointed since they were expecting more fireworks.

There'll be a break for the refreshment table, and I'll probably need a Diet Coke.

Then we'll return and have someone throw out a political question, and things will erupt to just short of a brawl. Our remarks will be laden with the sarcasm and snark our audience came to witness, and they'll rub their hands together as we attempt to throw out facts while shlugging up one another's sources.

After another hour or so in which nothing is really resolved, we'll remind everyone to log onto Imamother for more debate; receive a handsome check for our services from the organizers of the event; and prepare for the next stop on our tour!

Jeanette

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 11:22 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

If my husband were to invest in the same training as this girl you are referencing, then yes, he would surpass her. And my husband is not particularly strong.

And science has shown that there is actually NOT a huge overlap, contrary to popular expectations.

Do you know this is the exact argument used by feminists to argue why we should ignore disparities in performance between males and females, because females are simply not given the same training and opportunities as men.

Now, I'm not saying I agree with that argument but interesting to hear you argue the same thing.

Why do you need to go so far as to say that the weakest male is stronger than the strongest woman, a fact that is easily disproved? On average, men are physically stronger than women. I think that's a position that's much easier to defend and better supported by facts and logic.

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 11:23 am

Jeanette wrote:

Your source does not say what you claim it says.

Even controlling for age and size the weakest male is nowhere near as strong as the strongest female.

Dont assert things as fact if they're not.

No, this article was not my source. It was just an interesting article explaining why women can't be firefighters. At least in New York in 2015.

I told you that I have to find my source - yes it does exist - but it might take some time. Considering that I just spent two straight hours here, I think it's time for me to sign off.

You can believe what you like, but my fact is true. And I will bring the source tonight bli neder, hopefully I will find it.

InnerMe

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 11:23 am

Fox wrote:

I'm game for this.
Where's the first stop?

Mommyg8

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 11:25 am

Jeanette wrote:

No it's not easily disproved at all.

Again, I did see a study. Maybe the study lied, I don't know. But I definitely saw it.

amother

Green

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 11:59 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Does he think? You have chosen to be amother, so I have no idea what your background is. My husband is a government employee, an affirmative action in government agencies is the law of the land. Does that answer your question?

In any case, why do women want to be men, and men women? Do they think they will have more rights? Not sure about your question.

I can't speak to any one person's gender identity choices (or non-choices).

People tend to get suspicious when people make seemingly unusual declarations - like white Frum man declaring himself to identify as a black man - as it may seem they are doing to to take advantage of something. I'm cynical.

We could have a parallel conversation about people who hold themselves out to be frum - when they aren't.

southernbubby

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 12:19 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I would imagine that in crowded public bathrooms, transgender people use the facilities and we are none the wiser.

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:04 pm

marina wrote:

If my child was born intersex and I assigned male to them, but later they decided they were female, I would definitely support that decision. Because my decision was arbitrary. And of course I wouldn't tell my family about the intersex piece, so they'd never even know that.

And if my child was not born intersex, but had mental health problems because of their gender dysphoria and was suicidal, you bet I would allow the reassignment.

I totally get what you're saying. I was speaking to a dear ffb friend whose child is gay and the bolded is really important. I can't say I'd ok it, I haven't thought about it, but I would be compassionate and uphold the child's dignity at every step.
But the way the world is now, people aren't going for broke, I.e. the 50 hour reassignment surgery or whatever but floating through life, picking and choosing the degree of physical experimenting (yes hormones, no hormones). And, more important I've seen statistics that the suicide rate among people who've had full reassignment is somewhat sobering.

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:11 pm

Fox wrote:

To wash down the potato kugel.

sushilover

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:35 pm

marina wrote:

Yes, the legitimacy of a group decreases after it is co-opted by Russian operatives. I would want to know whether there's any valid way of distinguishing btw Blacktivist type accounts and the legitimate ones who represent the BLM movement. If not, that's too bad for BLM.

I appreciate your honesty.
Does this mean you take the BLM agenda with a lump of salt now?

marina wrote:

On this page here, you explain that you don't believe women experience systemic discrimination or institutionalized misogyny. https://www.imamother.com/foru.....07933

On this page, you explain that any systemic discrimination against AAs can be blamed on progressives. Other participants, like Sushilover, explain that there is no institutionalized racism at all.
https://www.imamother.com/foru.....40099

So I dk. Are you and sushilover examples of mainstream conservative voices ? Do you really expect me to take seriously your insistence that all institutionalized racism is caused by liberal policies?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.....tates

I absolutely do think that institutionalized racism is not the big issue Blacks face in America today. I'd be happy to have a discussion over which policies have negatively impacted minorities. Yes, I think that Liberal policies have a negative impact. That's why I'm Conservative.

That is not me sneering at people to "put their big boy pants on". If that's the impression you got, either you misunderstood my tone or I was unclear.

I'll remind you that in that discussion when presented with data showing that cops are less likely to kill black men than white men, you interpreted the data to mean that cops are actually racist, but can't be bothered to kill black men.
I was and still am flabbergasted that you can interpret the data that way.
I know you think subconscious bias is a thing, but please look at the data. It is very very shoddy.

sushilover

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 1:51 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Marina, you're a smart person. How does this even make sense? Hairy and non-hairy are specific physical characteristics. As much as I would like to change my physical characteristics, I can't. So even your example doesn't work in this case.

Gender seems to me to be a made up word which means absolutely nothing.

In our society today, what exactly is the difference between a male and a female? (I'm not talking about frum society where men have different mitzvos than women). There is no actual difference that I can see except physical characteristics. Women can give birth, men can't. Women have female genitalia, men have male genitalia. Men and women secret different hormones. They react differently, generally, to medications. Men are by far stronger than women, physically. The strongest woman is barely as strong as the weakest male - look it up, it's a fact.

You can pretend to try to change physical characteristics, by surgery and/or chemical surgery, the same way that if I am hairy I can undergo electrolysis.

So what does "gender" actually mean? It means absolutely nothing.

I agree. This whole idea of gender is a social construct seems to go against everything first wave feminists fought for.
It used to be that a woman who wanted to become a doctor, had no interest in children, dressed in unfeminine ways etc would be considered somehow "less" of a woman. Feminists fought to prove that a woman is just as much a woman even without lipstick and an apron.
Now gender identity warriors (is there a name for people who believe that gender is separate from s-x?) are pushing that old fashioned idea that if you like to wear high heels and nail polish, you can actually be a woman.

I weep for children who will grow up so confused. I was such a tomboy as a kid. That was difficult enough. I can't imagine how much more I would have been confused if someone told me I could be a boy gender but a girl s-x.

amother

Beige

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 2:23 pm

sushilover wrote:

Except that no one is saying any of those things. No one is saying that a boy who likes to dress up as Elsa is really a girl. And no one is saying that wearing heels and lipstick makes you a woman, any more than wearing a suit and tie makes you a man. These are all ridiculous strawmen.

Some people use the term "gender noncomforming" to refer to people who don't dress, behave, or otherwise “fit in” with traditional gender expectations. So Eli, who likes to dress up like Elsa and prefers to play with dolls, not football, may be "gender nonconforming." But he identifies himself as a boy. Maybe we should be moving beyond these expectations and stereotypes. But we haven't yet.

That's very different from someone who has gender dysphoria. That means the person believes themselves to be a different gender than that we would assign based on genitalia. One psychologist pointed out this difference:

Quote:

The transgender children that I work with will typically say to me, "I am a girl or boy." The gender nonconforming child will typically say, "I feel like a girl or a boy," or sometimes, "I wish I was." It's not an exact science, but it usually does separate the two groups.

I can't imagine what it must feel like, thinking that your body is wrong. It must be horrible. And it must be all the worse to know that people are dismissing your whole being as being some evil liberal plot, or "you're just a tomboy."

sushilover

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 2:27 pm

Jeanette wrote:

I understood your point more generally to be that while I personally teach my kids not to eat bacon I can still function in a society where bacon is available and dont feel the need to prevent others from accessing bacon.

I wonder how that applies in Israel though. I think there may have been laws against raising pigs or selling it in stores.

I totally agree with you.
An adult should be able to do whatever makes him happy. It's none of my business, even if I don't agree that it is helpful.

But that doesn't mean that men can become women and women can become men.

Do we put a man who identifies as a woman in a female prison? Should an athlete compete with the gender he identifies with? Can we compel psychologists to encourage confused kids to change genders? What about parents who don't allow their minor child to transition? Some countries consider that a reason to remove a child from the home!

southernbubby

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 4:01 pm

sushilover wrote:

But this has been taken out of the realm of medical and put in the arena of political and that is the point of my whole post. It is no longer a matter of not wanting to use the locker room at a gym where anyone can claim to be female. It is now a matter that the liberals will fight for the rights of the person with female traits but with male anatomy to use the female locker room and call anyone who doesn't want to change clothes beside that person a bigot and the conservatives will make the transgender person sound like a deranged individual who chooses to be the opposite gender in order to prey on girls in the locker room.

Truthfully that person belongs in neither the male nor the female locker room but gyms may not have a third solution and forcing the person to use another solution won't satisfy liberals who feel that a female with male anatomy is still female.

And such unfortunate individuals with gender confusion still need to be treated with kindness because they do suffer and it is not a mitzvah to be mean to them.

amother

Beige

Thu, Oct 11 2018, 4:21 pm

southernbubby wrote:

I don't think that most liberals would demand that a transgender person who has not undergone reassignment surgery be allowed to walk around nekkid in the ladies' locker room.

But the fact is that these are issues that our society will need to deal with. Let's just hope we can do it with compassion.