What to say to a drunk at a kiddish?

amother

Lemon

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 11:07 pm

Op, I feel like this thread is going in circles.

1. You are voluntarily choosing to host this kiddush.
2. You are making the decision that you want to avoid conflict and will allow anyone and everyone in.
3. You are choosing to serve alcohol.
4. You fully anticipate that as a result of the above rules (or lack-thereof) There will be a drunk or 2 making a scene.

Now your question is what to do about it? The answer is that you can't have your cake and eat it to. If you are choosing to live by the above 4 guidelines, then all you can do is hope it's not to bad if and when a drunk arrives and it gets rowdy.

To be honest op your question is childish. It's like my 11 year old son who knows he has a chumish test in a few days. On Monday he wants to play with his friends. On Tuesday he's tired. On Wednesday he wants watch a ballgame. Now it's the morning of the test and he asks me what he should do. Too late. You wanted it easy the past few days so here you are the morning of the test and your not ready. Same thing with you op. You want to have a kiddush with no rules, and everybody is welcome, and nobody will be asked to leave, plenty of alcohol......and you're asking what to do if things get a little out of hand.

Seriously?

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 11:15 pm

ectomorph wrote:

So you basically make a cliquey kiddush? Please be sure to invite people who really need invites

Where is this coming from? On one hand I am getting grief for not barring people at the door and not throwing them out on the street, now you decided my kiddish is cliquey? Can't Believe It

On what basis do you call my kiddish cliquey?

And how can I possibly know who needs invites? News flash: I am not the social director of my town. I can't set the drinking policy, nor do I have access to anyone's sob story unless they are my friends and they are welcome sob story or no sob story.

amother

Violet

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 11:19 pm

amother wrote:

He is her problem not mine. I would feel terrible if he got hit by a car stumbling home or passed out in the freezing weather. As long as he is inebriated then he needs a competent person to see to his safety.

Why can't his wife be the one to refuse him entry or slam the door in his face rather than me? Let her be responsible if anything happens to him. I don't want that guilt.

I have every right to see that he is in a safe destination. As much as he annoys me, we don't dump people in the street.

Please learn a little about alcoholism and the effects on the family. If I followed your ideas, I would still be in a bad marriage, trying to figure out what I can do to "fix" my dh. Or to be a better wife so he won't drink. Or worried about what others thought of me becausemy dh was a drunk.

I understand that you don't want responsibility if anything happens. Its HIS responsibility. The wife already closed the door on him by not letting him come home/to in laws house drunk. And your refusing to just 'dump him in the street' is called enabling. He is responsible for his own actions. And believe me, alcoholics have an amazing ability to land on their feet. He will find a place to go and not freeze to death. And if he doesn't find a place, maybe he will finally hit his bottom and seek help.Wife and in laws can't force him into sobriety. Only hitting bottom can give him that chance.

You would actually be HELPING him to escort him out of your house and shutting the door.

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 11:21 pm

amother wrote:

Obviously, you didn't read the thread.

You must the part where I said several times already that the kiddish is by invitation only. I also said twice already I resolved this with DH. The drunk son in law will be asked to leave next time he gets out of hand. I will make sure he is escorted home. The end.

LittleDucky

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 11:23 pm

He is an alcoholic. Not a drunkard. He has a disease, he needs help, but he will not realize it until he is at "rock bottom". Even what you or I would think was "bottom" (being told you aren't wanted with your own family, publicly embarrassed etc) it is not bottom for him. Only he knows when he has hit bottom and only then will he be open to treatment. AA is a powerful tool. But still may not be enough- not when the community allows such drunkenness and free-flowing alcohol. Community pressure to drink has sent many I know to drink when they shouldn't have (they already had some, they know they will make poor decisions etc). Or like one man (who told me he is in AA) mentioned to me that "I have the personal strength to say no to the host on Shabbos when he asks me for the 3rd time if I want a drink. But will the next guy in shul?"
You are enabling him by letting him stay. Let him go. Warn him and if he drinks too much he is no longer allowed over until he has a 30 day chip.

On a societal note:
Why must the community have so much alcohol? Can you not have a good time without wine or hard liquor? You have in shul, at a kiddush, at the meal... and it isn't limited to one drink. I am so glad that it is Shabbos and no one is driving. Seriously.
What do the young boys think? Shabbos/fun/socializing = alcohol?
What message are you telling them?

amother

Lawngreen

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 11:30 pm

amother wrote:

There are other safe places to escort him, with the obvious one being the shul. You just want to escort him home, where he is not wanted, where he may be a physical or emotional danger to the kids/wife, just so that you feel better about it and show up the wife.

Seriously?

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 11:39 pm

amother wrote:

I am not going to dump a drunk person on the street in the freezing cold even if it would help him with his alcoholism. I rather enable him to get home than have him hit by a car. My responsibility ends when he gets home which I will see he does. His wife can decide if she wants to let him in or not.

This man needs an intervention with professionals or AA or whatever. Again, this is not my problem, and I don't care how they solve it. As I said already, I don't even know this guy's name.

amother

Mauve

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 11:46 pm

Wife of an alcoholic who is now in recovery here. The women saying he needs to be shown the door and not just escorted home are totally right. Rock bottom is absolutely necessary for an addict to realize there is a problem and start seeking help. There were times when I had to lock the door and daven for the best, because that is the best help you can offer. Addiction is a terrible disease, and one you are blessed not to understand or live with. You are doing this man no favors by taking him in without question, and no favors by forcing him on his wife. Sometimes the best thing to do is the hardest, and that is making him be cold. As others have said, he will find a place to go that is warm. Addicts are extremely resourceful.

I think your lunches sound lovely and we have a very similar atmosphere in our home. I hope you can find a peaceful resolution and continue to have beautiful seudos.

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, Dec 11 2018, 11:52 pm

amother wrote:

The shul is across a busy road from his in-laws house. I am on the same side of the road as the shul. It is my concern he doesn't get hit by a car crossing that road while he is drunk. I can't think of any safe spots other than his in-laws. Who's to say the drink sil stays put in the shul?

There's no need to show up his wife. That's just bizarre. I want to hand him off to a responsible adult. I won't even be with the man who escorts him home.

gamanit

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 12:08 am

Amother Dodgerblue- you keep repeating that it's her husband her problem. That is not correct. While she is suffering as a result of his problem it is his problem and his alone. The only people responsible for his drunkenness is himself and the people who provided him with alcohol despite knowing that he's an alcoholic. So basically you are allowing this woman's husband (who you know is an alcoholic) to partake in alcoholic beverages in your home and then dumping him on her doorstep because he's her problem? wondering

Quit pretending that you actually cared about this guy. If you cared about him you'd either lock away all alcohol whenever he's in town or lock him out of the house.

amother

Dodgerblue

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 12:12 am

LittleDucky wrote:

I. Don't. Drink.
My friends don't drink. I don't control anything in the community. I have fun socializing sober as do most of the ladies. What goes on in the men's side isn't in my control. What goes on in my house is. You can see how upset I get from one drunk. We don't serve alcohol to anyone under age. I talk to my kids about the dangers of drugs and alcohol. Some cultures drink nightly. At least this is only one a week.

DH and I reached a solution as I said a couple of times. When he is escorted out, I don't want him back even with a 30 day chip. He shouldn't be around booze anyway.

amother

Lawngreen

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 12:18 am

amother wrote:

He IS an adult, there's no need for you to hand him over to anyone.

And what's to say that no one will open the door for him at his home, and he'll then cross back the busy road to find shelter in shul? You're making an awful lot of calculations for different people here without their personal insight. You've heard the advice straight from the mouth of wives who've experienced this, but yet you continue to push it aside.

amother

Dodgerblue

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 12:20 am

gamanit wrote:

Quit pretending that you actually cared about this guy. If you cared about him you'd either lock away all alcohol whenever he's in town or lock him out of the house.

I don't know this guy to care about him beyond the fact he is a human and shouldn't be dumped in the street like garbage. I am amazed at the lack of caring that he gets home safely. I am not altering my life beyond asking someone to get this guy home safely.

It is idiotic to think I should lock away my alcohol when this guy comes to town. Should all the shuls in the area also stop their l'chaims during kiddish also? How about every house he may visit should lock away their booze also?

amother

Dodgerblue

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 12:25 am

amother wrote:

I need to do what feels right to me. I agree his wife may not let him in, but that's her decision, and she can be responsible for the consequences. If she wants to leave her husband out on the street, he's may very well cross the street and get hurt or freeze. It's on her at that point.

gamanit

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 12:26 am

amother wrote:

I know that his wife is human and doesn't deserve to have him dumped at her door. Think about it from her perspective for just one minute here. I am completely not worried about him for the moment. He did it all to himself. She did nothing to deserve this.

Why is idiotic for you to shut away your alcohol when you know he's been drinking it? It would be idiotic for another house where he has never shown up before to do so but being as he has been in your house multiple times in the past it is certainly a reasonable precaution. I'm not telling you to go hanging signs around your neighborhood warning people to lock up their alcohol when he's in town- just saying that you should be doing a reasonable effort not to allow this to happen in your home.

gamanit

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 12:28 am

amother wrote:

So it's as I was saying earlier; you don't care about either him or her. You only care about yourself and your own feelings. You are doing all this so you can convince yourself that you are doing the right thing. Please talk to a rav before continuing to do this so that you can be sure that you are actually doing the right thing and not fooling yourself.

ETA- sorry for coming across so harsh. Just trying to shock you out of complacency. Try to really and truly think from another mindset; for everyone's sake.

amother

Maroon

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 12:38 am

amother wrote:

[quote]

I'm not sure why the men's side in your own house is out of your control.

Here's an experiment for you: this week, send out an announcement that the kiddush will be alcohol free, but there will be lots of good food as usual. See who turns up.

amother

Khaki

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 12:55 am

My son is like your guest. Let me tell you his wife doesn’t send him away. He goes away himself so he can drink as she does not allow.
Let me also give you some perspective what it means to have an alcoholic in your family...
We don’t like people like you who have enough liquor flowing for someone to get drunk. That means more than one bottle of liquor for 10 men. We don’t like chassunas with open bars.
You’re putting a stumbling block infront of the blind. There’s simply no need for alcohol beyond say 1 lchaim cup per person.
There are many frum men who are functioning kiddush alcoholics. To stay sober they can’t go anywhere.
Please be part of the solution not the problem.

DrMom

Wed, Dec 12 2018, 2:15 am

amother wrote:

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

OP, if you refuse to do anything -- such as implement any of the dozens of suggestions offered here -- you should expect your drunkard guest to appear as usual.