S/O chesed and $ | Imamother

dankbar

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 6:59 pm

Whatever need there is for Jewish religion prices automatically get hiked up.

Like if you want to live in prime Jewish neighborhood the rent goes sky high.

If you want to make a wedding in Jewish venue, you will pay through your nose.

The local stores with tsnius clothes have crazy prices

An esrog during year shouldnt cost more than 2 dollars but before sukkos you can pay hundreds

Wheras l havdil before holiday all shops have sale on gifts, etc

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 6:59 pm

dankbar wrote:

Besides that a frum lifestyle is more expensive, we live closely together so theres lots of peer pressure & competition.

You cant just walk out with a purlple pull down hat on your head, to cover ypur hair....etc

The judging and commenting is abnormal. It is like the comments section on the internet only you post nothing.

You end up with cookie cutters because someone the slightest difference is frowned upon.

dankbar

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 7:07 pm

amother [ Mistyrose ] wrote:

Maybe where you live, you can do whatever you want, where I live if I walk out with a purple hat to cover my hair, I will not be able to do shidduchim, will be laughing stock & will be shunned from community

amother

Crimson

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 7:11 pm

yksraya wrote:

While I agree people need to live within their means, and that peer pressure has gotten way out of control, a frum lifstyle does cost more than a secular one.

Tznius clothing, shabbos and yt. Kosher food, meat etc. More kids also = more expenses. Frum schools as opposed to free public school and so on.

True but it runs much deeper than that. I personally think the core of the problem lies within the mentality how we marry off our kids. We no longer make the finances part of that equation, whether its the kollel lifestyle, or marrying off young kids at 18 on the condition of parental support without any future plans.

Once you take the budget constraints out of life calculations, the concept of living within one's means goes out the window. The young couple has no reason to adjust expectations, to change anything they've been accustomed to earlier, or to make decisions according to finances. Additionally, the issue of being self-supportive goes out the window too, so there's no gumption or shame about jumping onto the government dole. And what happens when mom & dad finally pull their support? They have a particular lifestyle set up and it's extremely difficult to change a lifestyle at that point.

A chosson & kallah should be sitting down and working out financial goals during their engagements, and starting to work on achieving it immediately in whatever way works for them. Pushing the ball down the road and "figuring it out later", or waiting till you leave kollel and have 4 kids and mom & dad no longer offer much support is only setting up for the troubles that are rampant today.

amother

Crimson

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 7:14 pm

dankbar wrote:

But that's only because the cookie cutter expectations are in place. If everyone would wear what they want - you a purple hat, me an orange hat, and someone else a polka dotted hot pink one, no one would be shunned. So which came first? In this case, I'd say the cookie cutter expectations.

yksraya

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 7:22 pm

amother [ Crimson ] wrote:

I cannot relate to that. I guess I'm an out of the box kind of person. Never had parents or anyone else support us. We for the most, live within our means. And yes, we live in a place where people have extreme peer pressure.

I do understand what your saying tho, but I don't think there is much of a solution. You can only change yourself, and be a role model for your kids.

amother

Crimson

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 7:22 pm

yksraya wrote:

$

As for the tznius - if our community would teach 'living within one's means' with the same degree of emphasis as we do with tznius, our communities wouldn't be looking this way. If it was so, the majority would be dead embarrassed to walk on the streets pushing a $1200 carriage & buying $80 (or is $100 by now?) stretchies for newborns.

Also, if living within the means would be a priority in our community, our leaders would be focused on making yiddishe life affordable. The asifos and meetings would be primarily about that instead of the frequent tznius, smartphone and other similar concerns.

Instead, we are taught that we should get married without worrying about finances, have as many kids as we possibly can, splurge for Shabbos & Yom Tov - and Hashem will provide. Small wonder that our communities look this way.

yksraya

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 7:27 pm

amother [ Crimson ] wrote:

I will say this again. You can't change a community. You can change yourself and stop buying in to the "norms".

I don't spend $80 for a baby. I spend way less. I like to shop and buy nice things, but I don't spend much.

I bought a twin stroller for my toddlers for $89 in walmart. I bought other strollers over the years all under $100. The only expensive stroller I got is a doona. Bought it because I like the look of it. And it was a splurge as my 4th child and 5th child are 5 yrs apart and I treated myself to it (can bh afford).

amother

Crimson

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 7:32 pm

yksraya wrote:

Kol Hakavod for you. In that case, the OP's post is not being addressed to you. And neither it is to me (as I do what you do.) It is though being addressed to the majority of your community, mine and quite a few more.

simcha2

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 7:47 pm

dankbar wrote:

This is the saddest thing I've read on in imamother. Whatever happened to "mah tovu ohelecha yaakov"?

ectomorph

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 7:54 pm

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

The Jewish way is to provide charity recipients with the full lifestyle they're accustomed to, not the bare minimum required for survival.

This is true.

I generally avoid judging charity recipients.

We the middle class have to lead.

Whatever you do, do a drop less. Get one designer outfit and the rest target for your teen. Or all target if you live oot. Or thrift shop if you really live oot.

Instead of judging others, look where you yourself can be a leader in your community. Don't talk about your pesach hotel. Don't tell people you have full time help. Be modest.

amother

Bisque

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 7:59 pm

Honestly I'm tired of threads started by BTs bashing my lifestyle. Yes I got married at 19 to the first guy I dated. That worked for me. No I had no previous s-xual experiences. That worked for me. Yes my wedding cost a couple Grand had about 400 attendees and was not in a backyard. That worked for me. Yes our parents supported us for about 3 yrs until we were on our feet. That worked for us. And yes at that point we had 2 kids with another on the way. The worked for us.

If you don't find the community you live in comfortable find a new one. I for one do not live in the tri-state area and there for don't relate to spending hundreds of dollars on baby outfits, kids shoes and the like. In my circles a takanah wedding is perfectly acceptable and within my means. I am far from the only one keeping my kids home from daycamp a couple weeks.

Also the secular people I know have their own expenses. Most of my colleagues are saving up to go on cruises and vacations. When they are expecting they decorate beautiful baby room and get a baby shower with lots of gifts. They wouldn't dream of driving the second hand can I do at the salary we make. They would not move into a home like mine with it's pink and yellow bathroom s and 1970s kitchen. They think I'm indulgent for having cleaning help twice a week and having a 4rth kid and wearing a beautiful diamond necklace my husband bought me. These are my cultural norms against American society norms. It's not about religion. Please stop attacking my cultural differences.

amother

Mistyrose

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 7:59 pm

dankbar wrote:

Dankbar,

I think we are probably in the same community. I was night born to it, and my friends are forever commenting trying to "help me". I feel I need certain clothes when I am with them, so I am not prodded.

southernbubby

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 8:03 pm

amother [ Mustard ] wrote:

The Jewish way is to provide charity recipients with the full lifestyle they're accustomed to, not the bare minimum required for survival.

Tzedukah used to be collected and disbursed according to the means of the givers and the needs of the recipients. The money had to first exist so not every need could be met.
We are not supposed to treat a person's needs as frivolous and deny help due to our opinion of what he is entitled to but it is another story if we lack the means to help.

flowerpower

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 9:04 pm

1- We cannot live where we want. We need a place that has a shul, kosher food, school, etc, etc.....

2- Tuition is a biggie!!!! A none jewish mom told me that she has no money and is so poor eventhough her dh and her are working. Her kids extra curricular activities cost her $800 a month. I wanted to tell her that that is what I pay for my sons yeshiva every month and he isn’t my only child. Forget about camp! That’s another big expense.

3- We generally have more kids so more expenses

4- kosher plus shabbos/ yom tov is expensive

5- tznius clothes cost more. Simchas( even the minimum costs!) Even the cheapest Bar Mitzvah( and the boys tefillin and clothes) adds up.

6- many have kids at the age of 25+ and their parents support them. They have 1-3 kids and they are retired so they help them foot the bill many times

There is probably more reasons but my brain is fried from the humidity at the moment

pizzapie

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 9:16 pm

OPs question wasn't why do frum people have more expenses but why do frum people have very high materialistic standards. Of course there are people living secular lives who are living above their means. But it does seem that a disproportionate number of frum people are living a life of luxury. The fact that the majority of responses on this thread are in the defensive is something to think about.

amother

Honeydew

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 9:33 pm

Huh. Where I live G'machs also very much fill the role of "community pot'. Making a simcha? No reason to purchase brand new everything - its already here. Use it - and make a donation. Its actually the anti-consumerism approach.

Coming in from OOT? With a baby? Great. We've got all the 'stuff' so you don't need to go and purchase.

amother

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 9:34 pm

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:

Seriously...why is it then people from "your" community are constantly knocking on "my" door asking me for money to support their "cultural differences?"

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, Jun 25 2019, 9:39 pm

It's not religion, it's culture. Specifically, it's the behavior of a few communities. Come visit a dati leumi yishuv in Israel. Families are big, everyone makes shabbos and Yom tov meals, women dress tzanua, etc. and yet you hardly ever see this kind of obsession with material goods. Even in an affluent yishuv, there's a simplicity to life. Of course religious people can live simply.