I know I'm doing it wrong. HELP!

dankbar

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 1:34 pm

You are right but with such children the battle never ends because each try to show that
they are in control & they will have the last word.

Think of doing it differently..
Mom before she tends to work....Chayalla, mom needs to work now, I know you are a big girl & won't bother Mommy while mommy is at work. Go find something to do in the meantime. Then ignores the disruptions.

Now if mom didn't do that before, all of sudden theres is gruntling & this fight keeps escalating. This is what happened in this scenario.

Last edited by dankbar on Thu, Aug 15 2019, 1:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

mommy201

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 1:34 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Of course you should show your child love by giving lots of attention, gi - buy child nice clothing she chooses, making suppers she likes.
But love does not mean letting a child be CRUEL to her parents - and an 11 y.oo. who is DELIBERATELY annoying her mother is being CRUEL.
Mothers who let their kids get away this this selfishness and cruelty are raising a bunch of NARCISSISTS who will make terrible spouses because they have no consideration or EMPATHY for anyone else. And this 11 y.o. has no EMPATHY for her mother who does so much for her. That's scary!

Oy! Kids dont need attention, they need connection. It can get a little confusing the 2 of them. Attention is superficial, connection is deep emotional connection and stability.
No one is letting their child be cruel to the mother. Usually a child annoying a mother is coming from a deeper need that is not being met. And let's be real for a second, the parents are the ones that are usually more "cruel" then the children. SOmetimes children dont know how to channel their inner emotions or issues so they let them out in unappealing ways. Our goal is to teach them to the right thing, for the sake of doing the right thing. Not out of fear of punishment, because then they will only not do it when the punishment is there. But when they are older and a similar situation arises, and the punishment is not there, what is to stop them from doing the wrong behavior?
Our goal in parenting is to emulate Hashem. The single most important thing we have with Hashem is our relationship and connection with him not just rules and punishments. The rules are there to guide us to help us grow closer to Hashem. So too, this needs to be the way we are with our children. It is exactly what the Torah says. It is actually a higher level to serve Hashem from Ahava then Yirah.

keym

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 1:42 pm

I dont know how I would handle an 11 year old being mechallel shabbos. I daven every day never to be challenged that way.
However, if an 11 year old is say listening to the radio on shabbos and youve told her 4 times to put it away. What you seem to be advocating is confiscating the radio or threatening put it away or no......what?
All you do is engage in an escalating power struggle that does nothing to encourage any relationship with your child or your child with Hashem.
I would imagine it would be better to build a relationship with the child of MUTUAL RESPECT in which the child knows his parents truly love him regardless of his actions so he could be considerate of them and put away the muktza.

mommy201

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 1:45 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Modern Moms, how would you react if an 11 y.o. would deliberately MECHALLEL SHOBBOS - and continue to do so after you asked her four times to stop?

Obviously telling that kid to stop is not working or helping. Punishing/smacking.... will definitely have a negative affect.
I would calmly take the kid to the side and talk to them by empathizing and asking them if anything is bothering them and how they are feeling. I would obviously mention that what they are doing is not okay and they should stop, but I would give them an option to be able to express their emotions freely without having to resort to being mechalel shabbos.
I actually have seen that kids that are brought up emotionally healthy and have that connection with their parents, will most probably not resort to something like this, because they know they have the option to talk to their parents without getting a punishment. Then, when the child calms down, the parent can explain what was done wrong and work with the child on how to prevent in in the future.
Believe it or not, this works. You avoid punishment, have a close connection with your children and they learn to do the right thing for the right reason. Isnt that the best of both worlds?

#BestBubby

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 1:49 pm

Yes Ahavas Hashem is ahigher level - but you need to START with Yirash Hashem.

In Modeh Ani we say "resihes Chochma YIRAS Hashem"

We say in Ani Ma'Amin every day that we believe Hashem PUNISHES those who do Aveiros (as well as Rewards those who do Mitzvos).

Yes, it is a higher madreiga to serve Hashem out of Love - but children must be taught that Mitzvos are not a CHOICE and there is such a thing as Onesh (Gehinnom).

And children need to learn they cannot act as a Cruel Bully to their parents.

#BestBubby

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 1:53 pm

mommy201 wrote:

Yes this approach would work for MOST children. But not all. Some kids will be very SELFISH and NO Empathy for a Parent no matter how nicely you talk to them. I think the OP's daughter falls into this category.

Laiya

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 1:55 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Your right it is backing down so OP should carry it out.
Parents should be careful not to make exteme threats that they won't carry out - like you will never ride your bike again. Decide in ADVANCE a punishment that is severe enough to "hurt" but not so severe that parents don't carry out. Giving away toy is too severe for Mom to carry out - but taking away a toy for a week is nopermanent loss and can be carried out.

Obviously this wasn't thought out, it was something OP said in frustration in the moment.

Does taking away the toy help her dd understand her what she did wrong? Does it help OP give her dd the ability to choose differently next time? Does it send the message that her mother loves her no matter what she does, and believes she is capable of change? Imho, no.

Punishment only fosters resentment within the relationship, and if anything, creates a feeling in the dc of having "paid" for her mistake, and she's now free to repeat as she has a clean slate.

mommy201

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 2:01 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

strongly disagree again. Kids are born with innate goodness. Any extreme bad middos usually develops as they are growing up, usually as a result of lack of emotional stability or connection.

I would never assume OP's child falls into a category of being born only selfish. I dont think I would ever say that about any child.

How do you know that empathy doesn't work for all? Have you tried it? Many ppl think they've tried it but it is not a one time thing of staying calm, it's a lifetime of work and a mindset change.
I've heard countless stories from people with extremely difficult children, who have changed their mindset and ultimately their children have changed.

mommy201

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 2:05 pm

Laiya wrote:

Love what you said. When we punish we are taking ownership and responsibility for the behavior and not teaching our children to take responsibility.

Laiya

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 2:06 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Modern Moms, how would you react if an 11 y.o. would deliberately MECHALLEL SHOBBOS - and continue to do so after you asked her four times to stop?

My personal emotional reaction to misbehavior is not supposed to direct my parenting. Sometimes it's very hard to separate the 2 bec we're human after all, and we can feel personally hurt or angry. From the way you capitalized mechalel shabbos in your post, I can feel the emotion.

But I think that we need to calm ourselves down and parent based on what is going to be helpful for their chinuch, not based on our feelings. If you're unable to do that, it's better to give no reaction and no response, than to respond in anger. Yelling and screaming in anger is against Torah, regardless of whether it's directed to your dc. (Pretending to be angry, bec that's what is necessary for their chinuch, is different, but that's not what's being addressed here)

keym

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 2:09 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

I agree that there are children who are SELFISH and NO EMPATHY. But almost always because they were not modelled proper empathy, taking other people into account, seeing their perspective.
Teaching empathy is a longterm parenting goal. It is untrue and unfair to call an 11 year old (who is halachicly and legally not punishable for most of their actions) selfich and cruel. She is a work in progress and this time couldnt listen to her mother. Work with her. Listen to her. Why is she making those noises. Why is she continuing. Maybe next time, she will be able to stop after 4 warnings. Progress.

#BestBubby

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 2:12 pm

mommy201 wrote:

strongly disagree again. Kids are born with innate goodness. Any extreme bad middos usually develops as they are growing up, usually as a result of lack of emotional stability or connection.

d.

The Torah says the opposite. "Yetzer Odom RAH mi'neurov".
We are all born selfish - virtually all little kids will grab a toy away from another child. Children must be TAUGHT to be CONSIDERATE for others - it is not "natural" or "innate".
For Most kids being a good role model, talking about good middos works. But some kids will only do the right thing if punished. All the sweet talk in the world does not work.

Laiya

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 2:17 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

We also have a mitzvah to be dlz, and that applies to our children too. It's astonishing to me to conclude that an 11 year old is cruel, selfish and lacks empathy bec of this 1 limited description of an interaction.

But putting that aside, being dlz is not only a mitzvah, it's also beneficial to your relationship with her.

If you tell yourself that the motivation behind your dc's behavior is to hurt you, you will respond to her in a way that is negative, even if you don't intend to. And that will affect every aspect of your relationship, and she will absolutely pick up on it.

If instead you tell yourself that she is a dc having fun making noises, has no clue what the stress of working entails and never thought about the fact she's making it difficult for her mother, you haven't lost respect for her in your own eyes. She will feel that her mother loves her and appreciates her, and your relationship will be intact.

Laiya

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 2:20 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

Bn my last post here. I've heard gehinom described as the neshama's pain of having a distant relationship with Hashem. Everything comes down to the relationship.

#BestBubby

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 2:22 pm

Laiya wrote:

If the child were two years old or special needs I would agree with you. An 11 y.o. normal child who refuses to stop disturbing her mother after being asked nicely four times to stop is DELIBERATELY provoking her mother.

I guess if your child spat in your face and said "F. U" you would say "darling, what did I do to make you upset? Tell me and I will give you what ever you want so you won't be upset"

amother

Bisque

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 2:27 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

An 11 year old who is deliberately provoking her mother should not be assumed to be cruel or lacking empathy. Selfish? Yes, most kids are pretty selfish. Also somewhat immature, but that's developmentally expected as well. The assumption that children who are taught proper behavior will always exhibit proper behavior is very strange. And unrealistic.

mommy201

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 2:27 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

I'll clarify. We all have a yetzer hora and a yetzer tov. Babies are born with only the yetzer hora showing and the yetzer tov hidden. According to the Baal Hatanya, the yetzer tov naturally comes out in a child as they grow. Our job as parents is to help them bring it out. All children are born with a neshama and a neshama is pure goodness. They have it in them.
I don't think we can accomplish helping them bring out their goodness by punishing the "bad" that was born with them. We are supposed to help them shine and grow not punish and yell - it will not kill the "bad" trait.