 |
|
 |
 |
|
|
Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
alef12
|
 Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:15 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | You are truly unique, then.
Just out of curiosity, are there people in your craft who don't have that same grasp of math and can still excel?
Also, I am not advocating for the elimination of mathematics from the high school curriculum. Just the elimination of the requirement of years and years of mathematics. There should be alternatives.
At the very least, math should be more geared to the careers that usually use it- namely, finance, computers, and data analytics. |
If you really want to excel you need to be able to use the math. You can be a pretty good baker most of the time without the math but to really make excellent bread consistently the math is vital.
For pattern drafting the math is very much a part of it. For a hobby it's not necessary but as a career definitely!
I don't agree that math should be geared to the careers that people automatically think of when they think math. I just listed two careers that use math that aren't finance, computers etc....
I'm sure there are others. Why handicap children and make it harder for them to succeed in future careers by cutting advanced math out of their education ?
| |
|
| Back to top |
 11
|
|
amother
Green
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:17 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | That conclusion may well be 100% wrong.
I've seen many good math teachers will a very strong cohort of failing students.
What makes a math teacher "good"? Is the measure of math education based on students' understanding? If that is the case, I'd encourage most public school math teachers to quit right now. |
why public school math teachers specifically?
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
|
|
amother
OP
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:21 am
| amother [ Green ] wrote: | | why public school math teachers specifically? |
Because it seems to me that in frum schools, where we do segregate much more based on ability, more math teachers can get through to their students.
I teach students who barely speak English, or don't speak it at all. Students whose math level is 3rd grade or below. Those students don't usually make their way into the mainstream frum schools. (Well, except Chassidish schools, if we're talking about not speaking English.)
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
|
|
amother
OP
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:22 am
| alef12 wrote: | If you really want to excel you need to be able to use the math. You can be a pretty good baker most of the time without the math but to really make excellent bread consistently the math is vital.
For pattern drafting the math is very much a part of it. For a hobby it's not necessary but as a career definitely!
I don't agree that math should be geared to the careers that people automatically think of when they think math. I just listed two careers that use math that aren't finance, computers etc....
I'm sure there are others. Why handicap children and make it harder for them to succeed in future careers by cutting advanced math out of their education ? |
So you think everyone should have to slave and suffer for the few who need it?
Also, you mentioned Algebra, primarily. Fine, teach equation skills (though a lot of students can't even do that).
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
|
|
amother
Green
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:25 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | Because it seems to me that in frum schools, where we do segregate much more based on ability, more math teachers can get through to their students.
I teach students who barely speak English, or don't speak it at all. Students whose math level is 3rd grade or below. Those students don't usually make their way into the mainstream frum schools. (Well, except Chassidish schools, if we're talking about not speaking English.) |
You are in a highschool with ESL students who are at 3rd grade level of math. This is not a typical public highschool situation.
| |
|
| Back to top |
10
|
|
amother
OP
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:28 am
| amother [ Green ] wrote: | | You are in a highschool with ESL students who are at 3rd grade level of math. This is not a typical public highschool situation. |
Well, you can separate the two, to a certain extent - ESL students and students who are on a 3rd grade level of math.
Actually, that is a pretty typical NYC public school situation. 20%+ special ed population, but special ed isn't what P3 students are like in Bais Yaakov. If they have an IEP, it usually means the disabilities are significant, since another 20-30% of the students would be sent for an IEP eval if they were in a Bais Yaakov.
ESL population is also going to be at least 30% in most NYC schools. Mine is a bit higher because we get them off the plane all the time.
Ever checked the math passing rates in NYC? They're really low. I know that doesn't necessarily represent the whole country, but it does represent most large, urban areas.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
|
amother
Green
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:29 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | So you think everyone should have to slave and suffer for the few who need it?
Also, you mentioned Algebra, primarily. Fine, teach equation skills (though a lot of students can't even do that). |
Study skills. Working hard at something. Pushing through.
This is needed to be a functional grown-up.
| |
|
| Back to top |
8
|
alef12
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:30 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | So you think everyone should have to slave and suffer for the few who need it?
Also, you mentioned Algebra, primarily. Fine, teach equation skills (though a lot of students can't even do that). |
Hey, if that's your argument. Why teach them to write essays? It's such hard work and how many essays will they have to write in their lives? Why make them suffer to learn history either. It's in the past. Let them listen to music and post on the latest social media apps all day. Why should they have to "suffer" and get an education at all?
My son is profoundly dyslexic. He suffered and "slaved" to learn to read. Following your logic we should have just let him be. It was obviously too hard for him so why force him?
I actually referred to algebra AND geometry. What's considered 9th and 10th grade math in NY state. That should be the minimum in my opinion. Even if it takes struggling students 4 years to do those two years of math. They are important.
| |
|
| Back to top |
13
|
|
amother
OP
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:31 am
| amother [ Green ] wrote: | Study skills. Working hard at something. Pushing through.
This is needed to be a functional grown-up. |
Even good study skills are often not good enough.
And study skills in math aren't needed to be a functional grown up. Just ask most grown-ups with stable jobs.
| |
|
| Back to top |
3
|
|
amother
OP
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:35 am
| alef12 wrote: | Hey, if that's your argument. Why teach them to write essays? It's such hard work and how many essays will they have to write in their lives? Why make them suffer to learn history either. It's in the past. Let them listen to music and post on the latest social media apps all day. Why should they have to "suffer" and get an education at all?
My son is profoundly dyslexic. He suffered and "slaved" to learn to read. Following your logic we should have just let him be. It was obviously too hard for him so why force him?
I actually referred to algebra AND geometry. What's considered 9th and 10th grade math in NY state. That should be the minimum in my opinion. Even if it takes struggling students 4 years to do those two years of math. They are important. |
It's not my argument if it's doable. Essay writing is doable for most students. Learning history is also. Just take a look at the Regents scores, and they'll tell that story.
As a teacher, I believe that we need to challenge students at a level that is somewhat above where they are currently holding. But if they're holding at 6th-7th grade level, which is where the majority of students are in math when they enter high school (and in this statistic, I am including Bais Yaakov and yeshiva students), is it fair to expect them to be able to move on to Algebra II in 11th grade? Especially with any sort of understanding, instead of just teaching to the test?
Okay. Algebra and Geometry. Not Algebra II or anything above.
And take proofs out of Geometry, since they're really higher-order thinking (especially when you can only spend a few weeks on it instead of half the year as we used to).
As a last response, this is another one of the many reasons that I am going to leave education. It is difficult for me to justify to myself why education is important altogether. I just see a lot of tedium. I value knowledge for knowledge's sake, but if someone does not have that value (and the majority of my students do not), then what is the value of education?
Basically, I don't belong in the field anymore, so the question is moot. I asked specifically about math because I think it is the hardest subject in school for the majority of students, and it is almost universally hated.
| |
|
| Back to top |
1
|
DrMom
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 12:54 am
It sounds to me like you are burnt-out from teaching unprepared, under-educated, and unmotivated students in a crappy school district, and your solution is to give up on them.
I can completely understand why you'd feel that way. We can't all be Jaime Escalante.
FWIW, when I went to school, 4 years of math was not required for all HS students, but at least 3 years was the recommended curriculum for those going on the higher education. I think this is reasonable.
| |
|
| Back to top |
16
|
Mommyg8
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 1:00 am
The real reason we need high school math is to be able to take college math. Thats how I see it.
Many degrees require college algebra and/or calculus. It doesn't matter that nobody will ever ever use college algebra, precalc or calculus. It's a requirement and you can't graduate without passing math. And... you cant do well in college level math if you do not have a good high school math background.
As absurd as this sounds, this is the system in the United States today. Someone who cannot pass high school math will not be able to take college math, and will therefore not be able to receive a degree. It's that simple.
| |
|
| Back to top |
5
|
|
amother
Copper
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 1:09 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: |
Basically, I don't belong in the field anymore, so the question is moot. I asked specifically about math because I think it is the hardest subject in school for the majority of students, and it is almost universally hated. |
I think Grammar holds that title. And writing well written essays is not a feat that many students do well with either. Most community classes have remedial courses for both writing and math, because those are two subjects many do poorly in.
But that in no way means that we should do away with them, or less of them. Even if you don't plan on using them in life, they still are very important skills you end up using subconsciously. Writing is self explanatory, and while you may not physically do the math itself, the underlying concepts, logic, and strategical reasoning is a foundation of many other life skills. You still develop some logical & strategical skills, even if you have difficulty applying it to math. You end up applying those concepts to the other stuff that you do do. You don't realize it essentially, but math & reasoning underline so many things in life.
And to those in programming, engineering and science fields who say they don't use it - you may not use it explicitly, but you definitely use it implicitly. Whether you're writing some advanced code, engineering something or quantifying scientific results, a lot of it requires the logical reasoning and strategies of high school math. There's a reason why math & english subjects are prereqs in most degrees, and it's not just because they want the students to work hard.
OP - I agree with the others. It sounds like you're burnt out because you've been dealt a tough group of students.
| |
|
| Back to top |
9
|
DrMom
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 1:23 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | It's not my argument if it's doable. Essay writing is doable for most students. Learning history is also. Just take a look at the Regents scores, and they'll tell that story. |
Now sure what Regents tests measure, but I find that clear, effective writing skills are sorely lacking among many in today's workforce.
| |
|
| Back to top |
15
|
|
amother
Ruby
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 1:24 am
| amother [ Green ] wrote: | Study skills. Working hard at something. Pushing through.
This is needed to be a functional grown-up. |
Don't the subjects they need to learn give them enough study skills?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
|
eschaya
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 1:32 am
What about those people who actually enjoyed HS math, even if they don't utilize it regularly as an adult? I absolutely loved geometry (especially proofs!!!), and found calculus beautiful. I know it's hard to believe, but I was not alone. And even though I almost never use these subjects in my adult life, I am forever grateful to have learned them, and want my children to be exposed to these ideas as well. Most of the things we learn in school are not solely meant as means to an end. Being an educated, well-rounded human being means that we study and find interest in a variety of subjects and ideas, even (and possibly especially) those that are less practical.
Make a list of all the subjects students learn in HS. Chumash, navi, ivrit, halacha, bi'ur tefilah, math, biology, chemistry, physics, earth science, writing, literature, French, economics, American history, world history, geography, art, and others. Some of these are practical and necessary for the rest of our lives (conversational ivrit, hilchos shabbos, understanding tefilah, writing, basic math, local history) and others may never, or at least rarely, become relevant for the majority of students (sefer trei asar, earth science, art history, european literature, calculus 2). But some of these subjects will become practically important to a few individuals, and the rest of us will gain breadth, activate new channels and pathways in our minds, stretch us to do something harder or beyond our expected scope. If we just cared about practical usage for adult life, we could go back to the apprentice system; determine a niche that appears to suit our temperament, intelligence and abilities, and focus a few years on the practical knowledge and skills we will need in that area. I can't foresee this being a good idea to build the future.
In school systems, it is most important to teach foundational skills well (basic communication and calculation), but then also to expand beyond that. Look, the vast majority of community pediatricians do not use organic and biochemistry in most of their patient encounters, and most will never have to remember the names of every facial muscle while engaged in practice. Yet it is still important that these courses be taught; for the few who will go on to research, teach or highly specialize, but also for every student who will have struggled, learned how to learn, and now have a very broad base of knowledge and understanding.
Call me a romantic. But I truly feel that the more human beings are encouraged to know and exposed to, the better off we will be. And while we could make 3/4 of school subjects optional (boy, did I wish gym was optional), we know that most people won't push themselves to take a course they aren't required to. And it will be their, and society's, loss.
OP - it sounds like you're feeling this way because of the particular student set and society you are dealing with. It sounds like at one point you believed in the value of knowledge for its own sake but have been disillusioned. I would guess that if you had the opportunity to teach inspired and motivated students, you'd feel a lot differently.
Also, I disagree with your assessment that math is the hardest subject and universally hated. This was in no way my experience (or that of any of my classmates, kids, and their friends).
| |
|
| Back to top |
17
|
eschaya
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 1:34 am
|
Also, I wonder if this new and apparently widespread difficulty and animosity towards math has to do with the "new math" curriculum. I watch my kids struggle through it, while easily learning math the old way on their own.
| |
|
| Back to top |
15
|
DrMom
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 1:43 am
|
eschaya, I completely agree with you. Excellent post.
| |
|
| Back to top |
6
|
|
amother
Green
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 2:34 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | Even good study skills are often not good enough.
And study skills in math aren't needed to be a functional grown up. Just ask most grown-ups with stable jobs. |
Its the act of learning, focusing, pushing through, learning concepts, digesting concepts, applying what you've learned.
Most grown-ups with stable jobs needs to exhibit learning on the job, perseverance, organizational skills.
| |
|
| Back to top |
4
|
|
amother
Green
|
Mon, Oct 28 2019, 2:41 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | Well, you can separate the two, to a certain extent - ESL students and students who are on a 3rd grade level of math.
Actually, that is a pretty typical NYC public school situation. 20%+ special ed population, but special ed isn't what P3 students are like in Bais Yaakov. If they have an IEP, it usually means the disabilities are significant, since another 20-30% of the students would be sent for an IEP eval if they were in a Bais Yaakov.
ESL population is also going to be at least 30% in most NYC schools. Mine is a bit higher because we get them off the plane all the time.
Ever checked the math passing rates in NYC? They're really low. I know that doesn't necessarily represent the whole country, but it does represent most large, urban areas. |
I'm not following the dichotomy presented of NYC Public school vs Bais Yaakov.
You aren't teaching a typical American highschool student a math class. You are either teaching students you can't communicate well with - or students who shouldn't be in your class to begin with (not on correct grade level). Seems you aren't really in a good position to evaluate the curriculum.
| |
|
| Back to top |
5
|
|
Imamother may earn commission when you use our links to make a purchase.
© 2024 Imamother.com - All rights reserved
|  |
 |
|
 |
|
|
