OTD questions, what was the driving force, turning point

amother

Periwinkle

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 6:12 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

Really? Or are they just being nice to her becuase she is a potential convert?

I'm not discussing her situation at all but I think it is very naïve to think they love her unconditionally, accept and encourages her, and wants her to live her best, authentic life for no ulterior motive. Or that they have her best interests rather than theirs at heart.

convert? what are their interests?

LovesHashem

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 6:16 pm

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

My teen DD is attracted to other girls. She wants nothing to do with a G-d who "hates her", and the followers who also hate her. There is no place in Judaism for her, so she dropped the whole thing, and now she doesn't believe at all.

The LGBT community loves her unconditionally, accepts and encourages her, and wants her to live her best, authentic life. (So do I, but I'm only a small part of a bigger picture.) She needs a place to belong where she won't feel judged or shunned.

Gay people do not attempt suicide because they hate being gay, they do it because of social isolation and the messages that they are unlovable. A lot of those messages come from religious institutions.

Of all the things in the Torah, the one thing I question the most is the message against gay people. It really makes no sense to me. I can be OK with all the other things that don't make sense, but this one just seems unnecessarily cruel.

Hashem writes those who desecrate shabbos are of the same.
It's not about who you are, what you want to do; there's laws about what you are ALLOWED to do. Why is that so hard to understand?

Doesn't it seem cruel for God to have some not find their zivug and also not get any s-xual pleasure?

amother

Green

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:33 pm

Mmm... I'm not sure if this is relevant, but my DH was raised in an hypocritical home. His mother kept Kosher, his father insisted that the kids go to shul, but he worked on Shabbos and took the kids out for bacon. My DH is stubborn and had a hard time in Yeshiva (in the '60's and '70's.), and as his father slowly became more religious and strict, my DH went off in the other direction. It was really the hypocrisy, he says, that got to him. His father cut him off when DH married a non-Jew, and wouldn't even allow his mother to speak to him. It's only in the merit of his sister, who refused to cut off contact, and Chabad, who opened in his neighborhood and reached out in the ceaseless way they have that he began to return to Torah and married me (a giyoret). Consistency in the home is a BIG DEAL.

yrb

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:59 pm

I had a horrible childhood which ultimately led me to become OTD. Its not that I didn’t believe in hashem I just hated jews I didn’t want to be Jewish Because sadly they were the ones that hurt me and It was long years until I found my way back thanks to the most amazing R’ Yoel Roth shlita which people knocked and harassed.

nchr

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 7:59 pm

amother [ Cerise ] wrote:

This is exactly what I was going to say. Some people just question more than other people. Smart people question things.

Questioning has nothing to do with intelligence. Intelligent people ask intelligent questions. It is not the same thing.

amother

Taupe

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 8:10 pm

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

In my siblings case, it was a less than ideal childhood + a predisposition to mental health challenges. She is now not only off the derech, but an addict, has untreated mental illness, and is dysfunctional. Her point of no return was premarital sx at age 14. She felt so guilty and couldn't handle it so she decided it was easier to completley turn her back on judisim than to do teshuva and get help.

poor thing that she thought that. just curios what made her think that that was the point of no return?

amother

Crimson

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 8:12 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Isn’t it cruel for god to make my daughter have special needs and on top of that have debilitating seizures? Life is not fair. For anyone.

amother

Oak

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 8:20 pm

nchr wrote:

Questioning has nothing to do with intelligence. Intelligent people ask intelligent questions. It is not the same thing.

I think your right. I think that people don't realize that since they are literally toddlers they are being taught the torah in a matter of fact manner. Often times people don't have questions about "how do we really know it's actually ALL true" until they are adults a few decades later. By then it's it's all so ingrained that the questions feel wrong. Not to mention what I said earlier with religion putting the stakes so high, it's not worth it to question and give up eternal reward for eternal punishment.

amother

Coral

Mon, Oct 28 2019, 8:21 pm

amother [ Azure ] wrote:

Omg! Same for me! If I had one question that I could ask God and I would receive an answer is : if you don’t want people to do homosexual acts why did you made so many people with those desires ?

amother

Taupe

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 12:05 am

amother [ Oak ] wrote:

actually I teach 4 year olds and was teaching the story of yetzias mitzrayim. one bright kid said Morah is this story true?
I said yes.
Did it really happen?
Yes.
how do you know? what if its just a make believe story?
It isnt.
How do you know?
well I know because my mommy told me and I believe my mommy. and her mommy told her and her mommy told her and HER mommy was one of the mommies who left mitzrayim. she saw it happen and she told her new baby about it. that baby grew up and told HER new baby about it.
kids were fascinated.

WhatFor

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 2:01 am

amother [ Brunette ] wrote:

Did she tell you this about her point of no return or is that your interpretation of things?

How old was the person she had sx with at age 14?

amother

Green

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 11:27 am

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

Really? Or are they just being nice to her becuase she is a potential convert?

I'm not discussing her situation at all but I think it is very naïve to think they love her unconditionally, accept and encourages her, and wants her to live her best, authentic life for no ulterior motive.

Or that they have her best interests rather than theirs at heart.

I think that, unless you have been there, you ought not be so judgemental. I lived in the secular world as a free-spirited bi-s-xual woman, before I became a Jew. My father and my best friend are gay. So, I know of what I speak when I say: yes, there is a VERY good chance that the LGBT community is more welcoming a supportive of a young person coming out than the frum community. Why is that so hard to believe?

Homosexuals (and bisexuals, etc,) are really ostracized in the frum world. That is why almost No One knows that I am bisexual. And I am one of the lucky ones, since I had a chance to come to terms with who I was in a supportive world where I had options. And as a bi woman, I had the option to marry a man and potentially be happy, B"H. I CHOSE to be a Jew. But homosexual people growing up frum are SCREWED. Excuse my language. It would be really nice if the community would be a little more understanding and loving and less ignorant - and YES, you can do that and still follow Torah. Sorry for the rant, I know it's getting off topic.

LovesHashem

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 11:33 am

amother [ Green ] wrote:

No you can't. It's not simple and if you keep going the thread will be locked.
It's a banned topic on imamother.

amother

Green

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 11:36 am

LovesHashem wrote:

No you can't. It's not simple and if you keep going the thread will be locked.
It's a banned topic on imamother.

I think you misunderstood - I did not say that you could be a practicing homosexual and still follow Torah, I said that you can be understanding and loving and not ignorant about the struggles of frum homosexuals (especially young people who haven't even broken halacha!) and still follow Torah. I'm pretty sure I'm not wrong about that.

amother

Green

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 11:48 am

LovesHashem wrote:

No you can't. It's not simple and if you keep going the thread will be locked.
It's a banned topic on imamother.

Or correct me - where is it written that we should ostracize a 15 year old girl who has done NOTHING wrong, but is having same relations attraction? If we want to keep her in the community, we would do best to try to help and support and understand and love, in the hopes that she will learn to come to terms with herself within the bounds of Torah.

LovesHashem

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 11:54 am

amother [ Green ] wrote:

I misunderstood then.
Smile

nchr

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 12:02 pm

amother [ Taupe ] wrote:

Well I do not KNOW it is true. I BELIEVE it is true. There are no facts to prove it and that is where emunah and bitachon come in. I would never tell a child I know something that I cannot prove.