OTD questions, what was the driving force, turning point

amother

Pewter

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 12:16 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

Why?

Because one is a life sentence and leads to ostracism if not kept secret, and also makes it harder to have friendships with the same gender.

amother

Oak

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 12:26 pm

nchr wrote:

Well I do not KNOW it is true. I BELIEVE it is true. There are no facts to prove it and that is where emunah and bitachon come in. I would never tell a child I know something that I cannot prove.

I never understood this logic. Based on what you're saying can't emunah and bitochon fill the gap to believe anything? Emunah seems to be a reason or a way to believe something that we really don't have evidence that it's true. So we just say, we have emunah.

I'm only using this for the sake of example: Can I say santa claus is real? I have no evidence he is, but I have emunah. I suppose you'd say we know for certain he's not real. Fine. But what about any other religion? We can't prove they are fake, we can only say there's no reason to believe they are real. But they all have emunah they are real. Is that good enough and a valid reason for them to believe? If not, why are we different?

LovesHashem

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 12:44 pm

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

Because one is a life sentence and leads to ostracism if not kept secret, and also makes it harder to have friendships with the same gender.

Every issue is a life sentence. Anxiety, depression, dysfunctional childhood, the woman who posted about her special needs child with seizures - it ALL is. I can't publicly talk about my dysfunctional household either.

Having issues with friendships is another symptom of the struggle, like me having panic attacks is a symptom of my anxiety. Me having trouble with relationships is because of the hell of a childhood I went through. Me having a lot of inner struggles and waking up every day feelings things that I cannot solve because of my childhood is that too.

Life isn't easy; not for me, not for someone dealing with same s-x attraction, not for ANYONE. No one has a monopoly on having "the worst problem".

I have struggles with relationships that often feels as you said "a life sentence and talking about it would lead to ostracism". I feel like certain struggles I have are "taboo also".

You just need to find he proper support group. It doesn't have to be on a podium or in Mishpacha magazine. You just need to find one or two people who know what you are going through and/or are ready to listen and not judge.

And I's possible to find.

amother

Pewter

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 1:49 pm

There is a difference between not being able to publicly talk about something and having to keep it actually secret. Also, those other issues aren't life sentences in the same sense, but I never said that they aren't also tough situations to be in.

LovesHashem

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 2:22 pm

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

You can't really compare ANY situation to one another.
That's why you really need people who you can talk to openly about wtvr you struggle with.

Also there's plenty of other things you need to keep secret. I don't want to post further as it's too personal.

nchr

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 2:28 pm

amother [ Oak ] wrote:

We are not really different. It's my belief that the Torah is true that tells me we are. But in regards to facts, we are not. In fact, there is no compelling reason why Judaism is more true than other religions and certainly science would lead us in the opposite direction. Still, I believe Judaism is true and so I live my life that way. I believe in Hashem.

On another note, we know the legend or story behind some things like Santa Claus and some religions, which makes them different than belief, but not necessarily to a scientista or cosmologist.

amother

Fuchsia

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 4:40 pm

nchr wrote:

You’re right. The fact that there is no archeological proof of yetzias mitzrayim, matan torah or the midbar really bothers my dh. For some reason it doesn’t bother me. But that kind of thing can be a deal breaker for people.

amother

Black

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 5:13 pm

I had a horrible childhood and was s-xually assaulted as a teenager but what made me want to walk away from everything was not that, it was...

- my school and community obsessing over tznius

- my parents obsessing over minhagim (I still don’t get it!)

But the thing that kept me frum was that I grew up in an extremely diverse community, so I knew there are many ways to serve Hashem.

I worry a lot about children growing up in NY. (Monsey, Lakewood, Brooklyn) If I’d grow up there, I wouldn’t be frum today.

SplitPea

Tue, Oct 29 2019, 11:40 pm

You are missing a MAJOR answer here. How about those who honestly dont have believe in Judaism from a intellectual perspective?

amother

Cerulean

Wed, Oct 30 2019, 1:04 am

amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:

Other religions have major discrepancies; Judaism does not.

Emunah is NOT blind faith. It is KNOWING that there is a Divine truth but that as a human, you can’t fully understand it. There’s a big difference between the two.

Also, there’s a very simple reason there is no actual proof of Judaism’s authenticity. If there were, there would be no bechirah. There is, however, compelling reasons to believe, such as the many prophecies in tanach that came true, the sheer genius of the Torah, the unbroken and recorded chain of the mesorah that dates back to Moshe rabbeinu, etc.

Has no one else here read Permission to Believe? Or listened to Rabbi Mechanic??

Back to OP’s question, I’m surprised no one bought up a reason for going otd that I believe is quite common: pure yetzer hara. Our teens have grueling schedules and lots of restrictions. As adolescents, they also aren’t very good at thinking about long-term ramifications of their choices. Doesn’t it make sense that lots of them just want to try out all the forbidden “fun” stuff out there?

amother

Hotpink

Wed, Oct 30 2019, 1:11 am

amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:

Other religions have major discrepancies; Judaism does not.

Sure it does. I won't mention them because there's no reason to stir up disbelief.

I believe anyhow.

If there were one perfect book that proved the religion beyond all doubt, then the whole world would be religious Jews by now.

As you say, doubt is built into the system.

amother

Cerulean

Wed, Oct 30 2019, 1:19 am

amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:

I’m not sure what you’re referring to, but every other religion started with ONE person receiving a revelation and sharing it with his followers. If that’s not a reason in and of itself to doubt a religion’s authenticity, I don’t know what is.

There is no other religion that can boast of a Gdly revelation with more than a million witnesses who have shared their experience with their children and have a record of that chain until today.

There are no discrepancies in the Torah. Maybe things we don’t understand, but the actual text has not changed for thousands of years.

amother

Yellow

Wed, Oct 30 2019, 1:35 am

amother [ Hotpink ] wrote:

Oh please. You can't compare the discrepancies you are referring to to discrepancies in other religions. Not sure who's reading this, so I'll not go further. Do your own research (it doesn't sound like you did much, actually).

I don't know if you realize this, but both Christianity and Islam are based on Judaism. Which essentially means - they wanted our religion without all those pesky restrictions. Don't we all.

Atheism requires even more mind boggling faith than religion does. And are you seriously considering the Far East religions with their basis of pure avodah zarah?

In actual fact, the avoda zaros our ancestors worshipped actually worked. Scientifically proven, that if you did the right mumbo jumbo, you got what you asked for. It really worked. There were actual real witches in those days. They knew the secrets, they could do real black magic. Kind of makes you think differently about the olden days of idol worship, doesn't it?

amother

Hotpink

Wed, Oct 30 2019, 2:05 am

amother [ Yellow ] wrote:

My dissertation was on comparative religion. I have probably done a little more research than the average person. Thanks for the lesson, though.

amother

White

Wed, Oct 30 2019, 2:45 am

Haven't read the whole thread - has anyone suggested adding "being bullied" to the poll?

amother

Tangerine

Wed, Oct 30 2019, 4:32 am

my sibling grew up in a beautiful neutral chassidish home. nothing strict. the individual went through a trauma watching one of our parents die as a child and the trauma probably wasnt adequately addressed. add another vote for unaddressed trauma. apparantly that's a common cause.

amother

Wheat

Wed, Oct 30 2019, 4:33 am

amother [ Oak ] wrote:

I wouldn't consider myself OTD, but I'm very skeptical about everything. I realize that our core beliefs cannot be PROVEN true. The questions I and many others have are very direct and straightforward, and the answers are very shaky. Most things about religion seems to be comforting to society to the extent that I realize that if I were to make up a religion, these would be the exact components I'd include in it. examples would be:

1. God loves you.
2. Everything that happens to you is for the good. Even disease, depression, and suffering. You just don't understand.
3. Don't worry about dying. This world is just a tiny hallway to the eternal next world which is gonna be awesome. There will be no suffering there and everything will make sense.
4. At some point you and your loved ones will be revived and come back to life again.

All religions (I think) make some of these claims. They are comforting and help people in hard and difficult times. That's why people -in any religion- are generally happier. They are more excepting of anything that comes their way because they accept that it's all part of gods master plan which is not understandable to us.

The stakes of believing vs abandoning religion are as high as possible. If you believe and follow the rules, you will go to olam habba. If you choose the other way you will just die and not receive the eternal endless reward. I'm not even mentioning gehenim. I'm not saying I don't believe it, I'm just not sure. The stakes are to high (which might be the strategy) that's it's not worth getting out of line. This component is common in all religions- very high stakes. Eternal incredible reward for those that follow, and terrible punishment otherwise.

Without the intent of hijacking this interesting thread, you raised some interesting points, and I'd like to address them with a few thoughts.

DISCLAIMER: I strongly believe in G-d and the truth of the Torah and Judaism, so I am deeply biased. However, I arrived at that conclusion after much thought.

1) Numbers 2 and 3 (in the way you describe it) of your points are not necessarily central points of Judaism, especially number 2. Neither are mentioned in the written Torah, there are no actual mitzvos associated with them, and they are not brought down in any lists that define emunah or kefira, to the best of my knowledge.

2) There are many things that I could add to a list if I were making up a religion, as well as many I could remove. While the points you raised are certainly points of comfort and ease to most people, relief in many areas where religion creates restriction and designing additional mandatory beliefs and restrictions could conceivably have gone a long way towards raising comfort and perhaps moral standard as well. The fact that Judaism got it right on so many fronts to the point that most of its moral and ethical viewpoints have been co-opted by the large majority of the world today, thousands of years later, actually points strongly to either Divine direction or greatly superior intellect in its formation.

3) Without arguing with your premise that some of the core tenets of Judaism increase joy, wellbeing, and happiness, the mere fact that religion fits with humanity is neither a contradiction to nor proof of its veracity, for if G-d created man with this blueprint, certainly the rules that apply would fit. While this is no proof, it also is certainly not an argument against, and cannot be used as such. It is a paradox. Therefore, you have succeeded in making these points ineffective in proving the truth of Judaism, but it does not in any way indicate a weakness in the religion. Indeed, I am unaware of anyone who uses this as a major argument for the truth of religion.

4) Other than Judaism (and Christianity and Islam which are knockoffs of Judaism), what other major religions share the core tenets that you quoted? Certainly the fact that Judaism got it right (and other major religions followed suit) does not prove its invalidity! This point would only be valid should it be proven that Judaism stole successful ideas from other religions' playbooks. While anyone can recreate a success story, it's difficult to write it from scratch.

Interested to hear your thoughts.

amother

Wheat

Wed, Oct 30 2019, 4:49 am

amother [ Coral ] wrote:

Omg! Same for me! If I had one question that I could ask God and I would receive an answer is : if you don’t want people to do homosexual acts why did you made so many people with those desires ?

Would you ask the same question about pedophiles? Because there are no studies I'm aware of that show a larger percentage of homosexuals than pedophiles, not that percentage should matter in any case.

(Consent, yada yada.)

amother

Royalblue

Wed, Oct 30 2019, 11:21 am

amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

Because one is a life sentence and leads to ostracism if not kept secret, and also makes it harder to have friendships with the same gender.

Plenty of other people have unfortunate life sentences. Take my sister with a terrible mental illness for example. She is plenty ostrasized because of that, even during her sane periods. Not sure why many think that those with same-s£x attractions have it the worst.

amother

Papaya

Wed, Oct 30 2019, 12:48 pm

amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:

My son was in Sinai, this month. He brought home a rock from Mt Sinai, when cut up there is an image of sneh, any way you keep cutting it, you will see it reappearing.
There is said to be a place in Saudia Arabia today, that matches all the details that say in Torah about midbar, Matan Torah etc.