How do people afford seminary???

amother

Firebrick

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 12:12 am

Fox wrote:

Unless you are already paying full tuition for younger children at home, this is something that requires a shaila. Rabbi Fuerst, sh'lita, the Agudah Dayan of the Midwest, has poskined that, barring unusual circumstances, parents may not spend money for seminary if they are receiving tuition discounts from local day schools/high schools for other children.

When and where did he publicize this psak?
I don't think this kind of psak should be repeated over to random strangers on the internet. ( btw like most other psakim, not only that one!)

amother

cornflower

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 12:23 am

Fox wrote:

Just curious, what other types of expenditures does he forbid for families receiving tuition discounts?

amother

Turquoise

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 1:20 am

How does anyone afford anything? They have money from somewhere - earnings, inheritance, family help, loans, or shady business.

You may decide that seminary isn't for your daughters, which is fine.

I think a lot of young couples get married without knowing what life is going to cost. They expect to be able to live like the top 10 percent, only they aren't positioned to earn that kind of money. It's tough.

amother

Lime

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 3:43 am

Total cost was about $17000. We got a masa grant for about a third.

Chinuch for our children is important.

I am totally cool with a backyard wedding (and so are my daughters) but I think my daughter really benefited from a year in Israel. And us based seminaries are not cheaper and don't get masa grants.

Rena K

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 10:33 am

Seminary was very important for me. My parents made a deal with me that they will pay tuition and I'll pay spending money. My friend's parents could afford a much smaller portion of the bill, but they were upfront with her early on about it. She wanted to go to seminary though, so she herself worked side jobs through high school to pay for most of it. By the way, that girl went to a top seminary and told me that she felt there were few girls there like her. Most of the girls were from well-off affluent families and didn't appreciate the year like she did. In a way she felt like it wasn't worth all that work on her part. But anyway, there are many ways to make it happen, if you feel it's important.

Fox

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 10:44 am

amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:

When and where did he publicize this psak?
I don't think this kind of psak should be repeated over to random strangers on the internet. ( btw like most other psakim, not only that one!)

Rabbi Fuerst said this in a speech at the Agudah Midwest Convention approximately a decade ago. I have an audio file of it that I'll try to find -- I've posted it on Imamother in the past.

So if you're suggesting that I am publicizing what was intended as a private psak, you are mistaken.

As I said, according to Rabbi Fuerst, spending money on seminary while receiving financial support from the community in the form of scholarships requires a shaila. In some cases, Rabbi Fuerst not only recommends seminary but helps the family meet the cost.

Asking a shaila about such a thing should not be a controversial stand.

amother

cornflower

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 10:59 am

Fox wrote:

I'm not opposed to the concept of requiring a shaila here, but wondering if he extends this approach to other types of discretionary expenditures. And if so, which ones.

Fox

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 11:09 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Just curious, what other types of expenditures does he forbid for families receiving tuition discounts?

Hah! If I got into that, this thread would make the Politics section look like a genteel tea party.

However, Rabbi Fuerst does a great deal to help people make responsible choices without going overboard in the opposite direction.

For example, under his direction, the community rents out a resort hotel in the Wisconsin Dells with an indoor water park for 3-4 days during winter break. The goal is to provide families with a nice getaway while discouraging them from overspending on travel to Florida, etc.

Obviously, some people still go to Florida. Maybe they have family there; maybe they're using airline miles; maybe a grandparent is paying; or maybe they saved up for a long-desired trip. Or maybe they don't care what Rabbi Fuerst says.

The point is not necessarily that nobody should ever go to Florida for winter break, but to remove the sense that everyone must go someplace fabulous-sounding.

The same is true for seminary attendance. If a particular girl would benefit, then great. But going simply because that's what everybody does? No.

amother

cornflower

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 11:11 am

Fox wrote:

So he paskins that people must ask a shaila before going to Florida if they are on tuition assistance?

The program sounds like a great idea by the way.

Fox

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 11:29 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

So he paskins that people must ask a shaila before going to Florida if they are on tuition assistance?

He believes people should WANT to ask such shailas.

I know plenty of people who consult a rav before making major or very noticeable purchases, such as home renovations, etc. And that includes very wealthy people who are paying far more than their fair share of tuition. It's easy to get sucked into endless lifestyle upgrades before you know it.

I realize this is controversial to some people. I once had an anonymous poster follow me around Imamother for a few months muttering that she didn't need a rav to tell her how to spend her money.

But, of course, it's NOT our money. It's Hashem's money. That doesn't mean living like paupers. But because we live in a seductive consumerist society, most of us need our temperature checked from time to time.

amother

cornflower

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 11:36 am

I am confused by the answer. You already said that he paskins seminary expenses require a shaila for families on tuition assistance. Presumably that is his psak, regardless of whether people want to ask a shaila or not. So does he paskin in the same manner that travel expenses to Florida require a shaila for the families on assistance?

Like I said, I don't have a problem with the concept of financial shailas or the notion that receiving community assistance could lead to shailas being required when they otherwise wouldn't be. But I do not like the idea of seminary expenditures being singled out for a higher level of scrutiny than, say, Florida trips, piano lessons, sleep away camp, chol hamoed trips, new clothes, or cleaning help.

Chayalle

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 11:37 am

Fox wrote:

I wonder, is this psak that they should not go to seminary altogether, or that they should not spend a 25K price tag on seminary?

IOW, let's say a family is paying a discounted tuition rate for younger kids (elementary and high school). Their DD wants to go to seminary (E"Y or local) and can get a spot for around 10K, less 3K Masa (pre-corona times), so their outlay will be 7K in tuition (and daughter takes summer jobs to pay her own airfare and other expenses.) The family can afford this amount, it's not much more than they paid for her 12th grade year.

Is his psak that she shouldn't go to seminary at all, or should she go to a cheaper option, like above.

amother

Tangerine

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 11:56 am

Chayalle wrote:

He didn’t give a psak. He said to ask a shaila!

Fox

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 1:46 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Like I said, I don't have a problem with the concept of financial shailas or the notion that receiving community assistance could lead to shailas being required when they otherwise wouldn't be. But I do not like the idea of seminary expenditures being singled out for a higher level of scrutiny than, say, Florida trips, piano lessons, sleep away camp, chol hamoed trips, new clothes, or cleaning help.

I suspect that there are two reasons that seminary was singled out over piano lessons or even cleaning help.

First, the amount of money involved. For most families, seminary is a bigger financial commitment than piano lessons or cleaning help. But the same would be true of a major house renovation.

Second, Rabbi Fuerst, at least in my observations, is committed to breaking the "everybody has a pony" syndrome. Unfortunately, the high schools push hard for every girl to go to seminary, and they often imply that parents who don't send their daughters are neglecting their chinuch. What is problematic is that a very expensive commitment is being undertaken with very little scrutiny as to its value for a particular girl -- not whether seminary is or isn't a good thing.

As an aside, I suspect that many Imamothers reading this are unconsciously assuming that asking a shaila about financial lifestyle will automatically result in a "no."

I have not found that to be the case, either with Rabbi Fuerst or any other rav I've consulted. In fact, sometimes I've been surprised to have Rabbi Fuerst say something like, "Yes, this important for your mental health [or sholom bayis or chinuch or whatever]. Do you need help paying for it?"

dancingqueen

Fri, Nov 27 2020, 1:54 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

Yup. I've said this before, but that psak just rubs me the wrong way. Of course learning for young women is the first thing to get cut. (I don't have a problem if an individual wants to go of course, but Gd forbid Florida trips and cleaning help get the same level of scrutiny).