Kollel/marrying learners

amother

Lime

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 4:37 pm

I know so many learners who are so incredibly dedicated to their wives and children. I agree with the poster that said that the kollel husbands are MUCH more available- the husbands come home in the middle of the day, they get home at a reasonable time every night.
My cousin's husband is a lawyer- 9 pm or 10 pm is typical, depending on what goes on in the office. and he's in Manhattan so there is no chance of him ever picking up any sort of slack in the middle of the day...
and personally, when my husband was in Kollel, he usually came home in the middle of day, we had lunch together....it was so nice!! or I would meet him near his kollel, we would take the kids to pizza etc., now we can't even meet for a 10 minute coffee!! obviously there were reasons we are still not in Kollel- my husband needed a different direction, finances etc.
but as long as it was working it was a very sweet time in my life.
I don't claim to know all the answers.....my kids are not at that stage yet.........I know there are alot of financial issues etc...but the dedication to their wives and kids is incredible (of course there are always exceptions). and the ones I know are healthy emotionally, grounded people.....I don't see college/working boys as being more grounded/emotionally healthy at all.....

amother

Papaya

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 4:40 pm

I just want to point out that there is a side to kollel that is somewhat of a “happy medium”.
I went to Bais Kaila in Lkwd. I graduated 10+ years ago and my entire circle of friends married guys who learned 1-2 years. Some of us got help from our parents (I did not) but I worked and life without kids isn’t too expensive.

I don’t think there is a big issue with this set up. Bh we are all financially independent, home owners and not struggling. It was a nice Shana rishona and a great foundation to start a marriage on...

amother

cornflower

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 4:47 pm

amother [ Denim ] wrote:

Chofetz chaim encourages kollel strongly. After that they encourage the boys to take rebbe jobs.

2 things -

You are correct but the wives really want it and we work hard for it. Very few of us have parental support so it's not like we're thrown into it. Most girls know that by marrying a real Chofetz Chaim guy she is agreeing to many years in kollel and then klei kodesh. Besides, many many of us are Chofetz Chaim girls ourselves so we REALLY know what we are getting into!

Also the set up of our system runs a little differently than the classic yeshivish setting. We have a mesora to go spread yiddishkeit, to open yeshivos and schools, and build communities. Dare I say we have a little more of a "goal". That is NOT to say that the 10 years my husband will have spent in Yeshiva after marriage were not for the sake of learning but it definitely helps us wives keep focus. Vs my friends in more yeshivish places kind of just wait for their parents to stop supporting or their financial situation to be so bad that their husbands need to start college/get a job before they sink into debt. And the social pressures in those sorts of places are REAL something that we BH barely have here.

amother

Jetblack

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 5:52 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

2 things -

You are correct...

And another 2 things:
1. They don't encourage every boy to go into chinuch. If it's not a good fit, a lot of them get degrees and jobs. Even a lot of them who do like the chinuch path or aren't sure, will get a degree while still learning, so that they have it if they decide they want to work.
2. It's a mussar yeshiva, so they are overall more likely to be a mentsh.

amother

Sapphire

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 6:05 pm

amother [ Lemon ] wrote:

I think it depends, I have friends from the UK and my inlaws are there, some of them are really pushed to be a Kollel wife especially if you are in some areas of Prestwich or Gateshead or going to the Gateshead sem (old mostly). I'm in EU btw (you guys aren't anymore Sad

)

I live in the UK too and when I got married 20+ years ago then the girls from the old Gateshead sem nearly all married learning boys, nearly all girls in Europe did (and start off living in E"y). That was the litvishe circle.
However things have defenetly changed. Gateshead has a nice community of young men, married and unmarried who are working. It has become much more acceptable.
Children and parents are more realistic that they can't live without the gashmius or that not everyone is cut out to be a learning boy. And it has become more accepted that not everyone fits in the yeshiva system long term and less frowned upon, which allows young people to be more true to themselves.
Of course its nice to be able to start a marriage learning in kollel.
But if it's only done in order to get a good shidduch and the boys feel pressured to perform and learn, how long will it last and how disappointed will the young wife feel after?

Everyone has to be true to themselves and learn in kollel if they are able to otherwise kovea ittim is limed torah too. We can all serve HKB"H in our own unique way!!

amother

Babypink

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 6:06 pm

A Kollel life can be a wonderful one!

However, it's not for everyone. Not every boy is meant to learn full time and not every girl is ready to support her husband while he learns!

There should be more freedom in the system, the ones who are really dedicated to learning should go for it and the ones who aren't should be able to do something else without being looked down upon.

amother

Cobalt

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 7:56 pm

amother [ Beige ] wrote:

I agree with you about teaching the boys to be mentchen.
However, I am from the UK, and we were never taught to marry learner's. Never ever. We were taught to respect our husbands and to instil emunah in our homes, but never that we must marry a learner.
But, my husband is neither a learner, nor a mentch.

You are right. Uk girls are taught to respect their husbands. American girls are taught differently

amother

Ruby

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 8:29 pm

amother [ Lavender ] wrote:

As for turning up their noses I’m addressing any of those that turn up your noses or say things like maybe it’s a chassidish thing. You know who you are.

I sure see chassidim quick to take offense. Every time there’s a post bout route 70 in Lakewood and someone mentions chassidim people are all over the thread getting offended. How do you know it’s chassidim? Uhh maybe because literally no other frum people live on that side of town?

As for the op I’m finding that long term learning is so much less common in the yeshivish community. Lots of guys learn for 2-3 years and then go to work. I’m not sure what your specific situation is but it’s well known that bmg is no longer really growing because the younger crowd simply isn’t sticking around.

Hashem_Yaazor

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 8:36 pm

This conversation is so foreign to me. Most men I have met are complete mentchen, and most of them were/are kollel learners. What I do sometimes see is that young men ARE mentchen but might not excel at being husbands because they're still learning that their wives are a whole different relationship than their roommates/chavrusos, perhaps, and it's just communication and learning through marriage what their wives want, and being a mentch allows them to adjust as their wife needs. They might think the right thing to do is based on their parents' relationship, instead of just starting from scratch and asking their wives what she would like...this is all fine and dandy and part of the growth in marriage. Nothing to do with kollel lives. In fact, rabbeim promote helping at home and being a mentch and derech eretz, etc etc etc

I laugh sometimes that I felt like I was the only woman shopping in my local frum store at times -- it was teeming with kollel men (I would go during breaks in the kollel day so my husband could watch the kids; I guess these wives preferred their husbands shopping...because every couple needs to do what works for them!) and even rabbeim...

I must live on a different planet.

amother

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 9:26 pm

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

I think bec it's becoming less and less realistic to learn long term, men are going out to work earlier. I'm not sure that the chinuch though is changing any front. I would be happy to hear otherwise.

Chayalle

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 9:50 pm

amother [ Papaya ] wrote:

You beat me to it. This is exactly what I was going to say.

amother

Aquamarine

Sun, Jan 10 2021, 11:34 pm

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

This. Kollel life can be wonderful. Having a husband who works and is koveya item can be wonderful too. Etc. The problem emerges when kids are pushed towards a lifestyle without consideration for their personal circumstances. There isn't an issue with any of the lifestyles mentioned on this thread. The issue is that we make it difficult for our kids to choose their own personal paths.

Chayalle

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 8:18 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I just want to reiterate. The problem isn't too many ppl staying in learning. The problem is the the chinuch both in the boys and girls high schools.

My personal experience is that children will go in the path that they personally are drawn to. I don't find that everyone going thru BY is drawn to a long-term Kollel lifestyle even if the teachers there preach it. At best, they come out with knowing the importance of Torah learning, and they can encourage their husbands so make time to incorporate learning in their work schedule.

Also there are schools that are known to be more RW than others, and it's the parents who choose where to send their kids. It's the parents who are backing up what the school is pushing.

My girls went to BK in Lakewood, and the girls are taught to be machshiv Torah, but many girls marry working boys or short-term learners. Only a few will marry long-term learners, and those are girls who truly want it. I'm sure many communities have similar schools.

So easy to blame schools. I think a child's primary chinuch comes from the home.

amother

Denim

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 8:29 am

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

I was part of the system for a while. Many want it but I've also seen the flip side of women getting very burnt out with many children high-pressure long hour jobs and then their husbands realize eventually that maybe they just don't like teaching the way they thought they did. I think it is beautiful for the people that works for but I do think that the pressure put on both boys and girls to conform makes it hard to Branch out and really figure out what they want in life. This is an across-the-board issue not only CC. But it exists in cc too.

amother

Denim

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 8:40 am

amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:

I have an issue with number 2. I have friends in yeshivish, mo, and cc circles. Everyone is doing their best in this world I would not say that the people in cc have better middos than others. I have family in all 3 circles as well and have lived in a few different communities. A torah jew who follows what Hashem wants is working on themselves.

amother

Aquamarine

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 8:58 am

Chayalle wrote:

I disagree with this. Schools have a large effect on kids & kids are very impressionable. Sitting in classes day in and day out learning how choshuv one particular path is, and how its more choshuv than any other path, gets internalized. Even if they don't see a particular lifestyle at home, they hear the teachers tolling the virtues day in and day out, and how the benefits of it overrides everything else. It sticks with them for a long time, and can take years for them to be able to accept and understand other paths in life. Many of them end up choosing that route, just because all of what the schools taught them. And when they realize that the path they've chosen doesn't necessarily work for them, they are often stuck in it. Switching paths come with an awful lot of hardships associated with it.

If almost all of our children refuse to consider a working boy who is koveya itim during shidduchim, that in itself speaks to my argument above.