Kollel/marrying learners

amother

Maroon

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 9:11 am

rae wrote:

I think there are more and more frum bais Yaakov girls who are interested in marrying frum working boys. However, the world being what it is, it is very hard for a Yeshiva boy to leave the framework of Yeshiva and still fully hold on to the Yeshiva lifestyle. I’ve seen it time and time again that girls are open to the idea, even welcome it, start dating and realize the boys are not on level with their ideals and hopes of how they want their home run. They quickly switch to dating only learners.
Starting marriage in Yeshiva framework usually means one is still under the guidance of a rebbe. Still in a spiritually healthy place. It’s easier to establish a firm foundation that way.
Most girls (and boys) are not ready to live on less. But that’s why their husbands leave learning after a year or two.
In a way working boys are held to a higher standard than learning boys. If a 23 year old is learning, there is usually no expectation of what job he could do in the future. Vs a 23 year old working boy needs to have an education or a solid career job to make the cut for most girls that would consider them.

I totally agree with this post. I think the bolded is the source of the shidduch crisis!!!
Most girls don't necessarily want to marry full time learners but theyre aren't so many working boys with the same standards as full time learners!!! Bnei Torah, daven with a minyan 3 times a day, medakdek in halacha, koveia itim, no watching movies...
And thruthfully, it is really, really hard!!
( my husband learnt full time for 10 yrs , he's in klei kodesh, my sons are working boys! )

amother

Maroon

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 9:14 am

amother [ Ruby ] wrote:

I sure see chassidim quick to take offense. Every time there’s a post bout route 70 in Lakewood and someone mentions chassidim people are all over the thread getting offended. How do you know it’s chassidim? Uhh maybe because literally no other frum people live on that side of town?

As for the op I’m finding that long term learning is so much less common in the yeshivish community. Lots of guys learn for 2-3 years and then go to work. I’m not sure what your specific situation is but it’s well known that bmg is no longer really growing because the younger crowd simply isn’t sticking around.

I personally never heard such a thing!! BMG is still growing, they don't stop opening more and more batei midrashim!!!
Where did you hear that?

miami85

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 9:25 am

When I was dating I was adamant that it wasn't so much about the yeshiva but the boy, but the boy says a lot about the yeshiva. True there aren't as many boys cut out for long term learning as the "system" leads us to believe, but a boy's ability to learn demonstrates 1)commitment to yiddishkeit and mitzvos 2)ability to focus 3)If they are truly serious learners, then they should know that learning without middos isn't worth a dime. I am part of the Chofetz Chaim hadracha which a)has a LONG term commitment for serious learners b)focuses more on the wife and couple being self-sufficient c)has an emphasis on middos so even if a boy has to leave learning, they have the middos/mentch tools to be a successful person. I had a Master's Degree before I got married and while I didn't love it at the time, I had to be earning a significant salary in order for shadchanim to take me seriously. But ultimately we were more self-sufficient than most other kollel couples. I'm personally not a fan of NASI's new initiative--I'm actually one of NASI's older initiatives--I don't think there should be more push on boys to marry younger--EXCEPT if that means that a boy will go to college and get a degree. If a boy is no longer shteiging at a high level at 20-21 and would be otherwise better suited for a degree or a career, then they should get married earlier. Otherwise let girls wait until they are 21-22 even 23 to get married. I got married around 24 and we survived kollel for 7 years but now live away from the NY metro areas. I like visiting NY and Lakewood, but don't see myself living there.

amother

cornflower

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 1:30 pm

amother [ Denim ] wrote:

I was part of the system for a while. Many want it but I've also seen the flip side of women getting very burnt out with many children high-pressure long hour jobs and then their husbands realize eventually that maybe they just don't like teaching the way they thought they did. I think it is beautiful for the people that works for but I do think that the pressure put on both boys and girls to conform makes it hard to Branch out and really figure out what they want in life. This is an across-the-board issue not only CC. But it exists in cc too.

Oh for sure it's not the perfect system. The Rosh Yeshiva never wanted the women to be killing themselves to the point of being burnt out. He actually said that a woman should only work half a day. Obviously in this day and age that is nearly impossible financially. On that note, someone asked him if one should stay in learning/klei kodesh if it meant that their wife would have to work very full time. He responded as long as everyone is bsmicha then it's better than leaving. The people you are talking about do not seem happy. Then yeah it sounds like the R"Y would have told them to leave.

Though as I'm typing I'm wondering if anyone would ever admit to being unhappy. And now I maybe hear where OP is coming from - are you saying that it's possible people are embarrassed that they can't handle it therefore they stick it out although it may be wrong for them?

amother

Olive

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 1:55 pm

rae wrote:

But it’s a common phenomenon that learning boys have a lot of trouble maintaining those lofty values early on when they get married leaving their new wives bewildered. Isn’t that worse?

chocolatecake

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 2:15 pm

Kinor Dovid wrote:

What bothers me most is that many of the children (of working people as well) are growing up like orphans. Tatty is never home. Mommy is also hardly home between all her jobs and when she is , she’s very busy and distracted juggling all her duties and phone calls.
The children are the ones paying the price.
Personally I think raising children and learning Torah are the most important.
Every couple has to figure out how to achieve those two things to the best of their ability while still paying their mortgage and the answer will be different for every couple.

The fathers that are learning are home way more than working fathers. They are around for sick days, vacation etc when the wives have work. I know the BY teachers like say how hard kollel is learning is such mental energy, the men come home so tired etc. Not to belittle sitting and learning all day but kollel guys have no bosses, budgets, coworkers, projects, worrying about promotions being fired etc to deal with. Kollel is just about the least stressful job one can possibly have oh wait, cuz its not a job! The men that are in kollel have much more time and mental energy for thier wives and kids than the working guys.

My husband learned full time for a little over five years after we got married. I worked 30 hours a week and my husband went to work four years ago and I still work the same hours. There was no cutting back when he left kollel. My husband was a lot more available when he was learning than working.

I can't think of a single family where the father learns full time and the mother works a full 40 hours a week. The only people I can think of where the mom works 40 hours a week, the father also has a very full time professional job and they have nannies. The nannies raising children is happening more in the professional world than the kollel world.

amother

Denim

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 2:17 pm

amother [ cornflower ] wrote:

I appreciate the honest and thoughtful response. Yes I believe people are too embarrassed to admit they are not happy.

miami85

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 2:22 pm

chocolatecake wrote:

Aside from a lean year here or there due to circumstances beyond my control I worked full-time and my husband learned full-time. I worked in education so that helped and my last boss was very understanding so that my husband and I were able to work at home on days when my kids were off (by that time my husband was also working). I find it harder now that my husband works full-time, hardly ever has time off except for weekends and yom tov and still has to maintain his learning sedarim on top of his work. Whereas while he was in kollel he washed dishes and went shopping during his lunch breaks, he had bein hazmanim, he got his learning done while he was out of the house so "home time" was 100% home time.

amother

Maroon

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 3:34 pm

I was disappointed at the answers in the yated .
They all made it sounds like there was a problem with the person who asked the question when in all honesty everyone knows boys and girls are NOT getting similar education at all!!
My girls get penalized for arriving a few minutes late to school, they have classes that end at 5.12 et 3.47, they have tests and midterms, they need to write essays and learn a bunch of subjects some of them by heart!
Boys are encouraged to show up for yeshiva davening but have no consequences for davening at a later minyan, seder start anywhere between 9.30 and 10.15...whenever majority of bachurim show up! They have a long brake in the afternoon which just doesn't happen in any other real life setting!
Even a serious bachur who learns 3 sedarim per day is usually not ready for "real life"!

Nowadays even a boy and a girl with the SAME hashkafik values have to do some serious adjustments to be on the same wavelength!!

Mommyg8

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 3:37 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

Sorry, which planet does this happen on????

Mommyg8

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 3:58 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

I'm not sure which part surprises you the most and I dk where you live but I've seen it personally in numerous yeshivos/mesivtos in my home town!

Its not a question of surprise, it's a question of fact.

I live in Lakewood and all the mesivtos here start at around 7:30 and end between 9 and 11, depending on the year. Five days a week plus Friday. And they have yeshivah straight through July, which the girls don't.

A boy who is not following rules would be out so fast you would see him spinning. (Which IMO is NOT good thing, but that's a different conversation).

ETA: Mesivta bochurim where I live are very far from getting married so not sure how this is all relevant in any case.

Last edited by Mommyg8 on Mon, Jan 11 2021, 3:59 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Floralwhite

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 4:13 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Again, this is a fact. Do the math. BMG has not grown at the projected growth rate at all. Look up the numbers.

I believe you, even without looking at the math.

I think there was a window of time, probably 1990-2010 where the kollel newlyweds was almost across the board. (Probably corresponding to a robust economy.) When I was dating in that time period (as well as siblings, both older and younger) it was almost unheard of for a suggested shidduch to be one where the boy was already working or in college (unless he was officially "modern"). The default was, you were dating and marrying someone in yeshiva. Lol, my sister was at a shabbos kallah once and a guest asked the kallah, oh which yeshiva is your chassan in, and was floored/mortified when the girl replied, no he's working. (Not that it was something to be embarrassed of course about but it just wasn't the expected answer and was seen an lower tier.) Another friend was in college and knew her parents couldn't help out financially and knew she would either have to wait till she graduated to get married, or marry someone with a job--people didn't understand why she would say no to a shidduch suggestion with a guy planning on staying in yeshiva. Her dates were very few and far between because what she was looking for didn't exist at the time, or barely did.

I see now, though, my younger relatives who are getting married are finding yeshivish guys who have already started college or have jobs (that said, these aren't super young guys, they are mid 20s by and large).
I think the pendulum is swinging, and I think it comes back to economics. When you have wealthy parents who can offer support, you have more people who see staying in yeshiva long term as an option. When the economy is crummy, that changes accordingly.

honey36

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 4:25 pm

I went to a more open minded Bais Yaakov. We were taught to marry a "ben torah" defined as a boy who puts torah/yidishkeit above all else. This doesn't mean he is in kollel, although that can be great also. Rather that whatever he is doing, Torah is the most important. So if he needs to be working, that's also perfectly fine, as long as he davens 3x a day, is koveyah itim, serious about yidishkeit, halacha etc. PLUS that time spent learning is the highlight of his day, and not just an annoying task etc. Yes, these boys do exist. I married one. Luckily no "real" Bais Yaakov girl wanted to marry him because he wasn't a "typical yeshivah" boy and he didn't wear a white shirt and black hat at the time 🙄 (now he does)

A lot of my friends who went to more mainstream Bais yaakovs were taught to only marry kollel boys. And that they will have to be moser nefesh etc. I think it's a little crazy that they make it this "one size fits all" model. What if a girl doesnt want to be moser nefesh? Im not talking about luxuries, im talking about paying for basics like rent, diapers and food without worrying?

I don't think kollel is bad or wrong, just that there should be another option for boys and girls who don't want constant financial stress for many years. And less emphasis on externals for goodness sakes!

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 4:35 pm

amother [ Maroon ] wrote:

I'm not sure which part surprises you the most and I dk where you live but I've seen it personally in numerous yeshivos/mesivtos in my home town!

Maybe because my boys dorm, it's different.
But there's attendance and consequences by minyanim and sedarim.
My boys have a long afternoon... Of secular studies, not a break.
And they have night seder as well.
They really do have to take achrayus for their time management and self discipline.

amother

Maroon

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 5:55 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

How many boys above the age of 16 do you have?
Reality is a bit different than the theory! LOL

amother

Mistyrose

Mon, Jan 11 2021, 6:04 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

This week there was a question in the shidduch forum about pushing kollel lifestyle on high school and seminary girls. I was surprised at the responses and want to bring the conversation here.

This is my understanding. Originally there were boys who wanted to be full time learners or even just learn until they get married and there were barely any girls that would marry them. Then girls started getting a Bais Yaakov education (at least In New York) and they taught the girls to appreciate learning boys. Times have changed. My opinion is that today we have enough learners. What we are missing are mentchen. We are missing boys that are emotionally healthy, that are grounded, that are ehrlich and yarei shamayaim, that are responsible. The girls are still being taught to marry long time learners, except that they aren't really ready to buy only second hand clothing and live in a tiny apartment. The chinuch isn't matching up. I see girls coming from families where the parents are working full time, Americanized, leading lavish lifestyles and sending to Yeshivish schools and the girls are grappling with these ideals that are being taught but don't really know how to internalize them or eat them. I think the system is broken and I don't think anybody cares, not even the parents. From the boys side there needs to be more emphasis on middos and being healthy and grounded, less emphasis on becoming the next Rosh Yeshivah. In girls schools the emphasis needs to be similary, healthy, grounded, appreciation for having less, living within your means. Of course we want to teach the girls to appreciate Torah. There are many ways to do that. Just learning Chumash every day instills in the girls the Chashivus Hatorah. No need to actively encourage them to marry boys who are planning to learn or never disturb your husband when he is learning. If they came from this type of home they will have gotten it by osmosis. If they have good Shalom Bayis and are coming from a Bais Yaakov school they will have learned enough to appreciate their husband being Koveya Itim. Seriously, let's stop with all this excessive ideology. I wish I could get this message through to the high schools and seminaries.

I agree with the mismatch. Families with girls who can afford sustaining a young family in learning must be very rich, with parents obviously working a lot or managing large capital, so obviously very money oriented. How are these girls supposed to agree to live a modest lifestyle is not clear.