What is the point of seminary, if not going to EY?

amother

Blue

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 11:56 am

amother [ Crimson ] wrote:

The "shidduch issue" should not be brushed aside so easily, even though I'm not in favor of the system in general.

If your DD has her heart set on a type of boy, she has to know that her resume will attract only certain types of boys, and she may be getting put on the bottom of the pile because of this.

A "top boy" is never going to look at a girl without sem experience. Many parents will automatically say "no" to a girl with no sem experience.

If you are MO, and are looking for a working boy who wants a wife who is more career minded, then you'll probably be OK - but that's going to narrow down your search considerably.

I hate it, but that's the truth.

Oh, and I have to agree with the poster who said "ew". Honestly, if anyone would have told me to go to sem for shidduchim, I feel like I would have turned around and said NO thank you, regardless of how much I wanted to go. I am a firm believer in the fact that a shidduch will come when it will come, and you should not subscribe to society's shtussim to get a "top boy".
I have a friend who got so turned off by teachers saying things like this that she firmly decided that she was not going to seminary - she was staying home and getting married. (of course she wasn't really interested anyway, but that's beside the point LOL

) and that's what she did. She was the first one in her class to get married - she got engaged while most of her classmates were still in seminary - and while I obviously don't know her husband that well, I do know that he is a fine yeshiva guy who is still in kollel now after 5 years and will be for at least the next 3 years. So there.

amother

Khaki

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 11:57 am

There was once a man that went to a sefarim store and asked to purchase the thickest siddur available. The clerk laughed and asked "why the thickest siddur?". The man answered "I have many children and every day they tear pages out of my siddur! So I'm hoping that if I buy the thickest siddur, I'll still have some pages left by the time they're grown up...". Life tears pages out of all our "siddurim.". We will all experience challenges that test our yiras shamayim,emunah, and overall commitment to avodas Hashem. If we want our young ladies to emerge on the other side of life with some of their Torahdig foundation intact, a year spent on intensively solidifying and cementing that foundation is an excellent investment.

Now here are the problems:

1. The seminaries that provide that service are extremely expensive, and this can be daunting
2. Not every girl is mature enough at 18 to realize why she is sent to seminary, and may spend the year distracted by the same social compulsions, etc that kept her from really growing in highschool. Such a girl may experience more growth at that time in her life by pursuing other things.

So the concept of seminary is very, very worthy. But it is not for everyone.

Chayalle

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 11:58 am

amother [ Crimson ] wrote:

I have RW yeshivish cousins whose daughters do not go to seminary, and they marry top yeshivish boys.

And there's a long stretch between a top boy and someone who is MO. There are plenty of good mainstream boys, including those who are learning, for whom seminary is not necessarily a make-it-or-break-it issue.

I also don't find that staying locally for seminary is an impediment to shidduchim. Sure, there are those who only want girls who went to big-name places in E"Y (they often come along with other big expectations) but they aren't everyone. Plus there are plenty who went to "top" seminaries who didn't get married right away either.

I think girls should be true to themselves and define what they are looking for when deciding on seminary, or not, or which...and not worry about shidduchim, which is in Hashem's hands.

amother

Khaki

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 12:02 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Yes, going to a seminary to ensure the best pool of shidduchim is merely a facade of the ego. "Hakol b'yidai shamayim chutz miyaras shamayim"

amother

Pearl

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 12:38 pm

amother [ Crimson ] wrote:

I wouldn't say it's being a "top boy" it's more of a personality type--if he/his parents are conformists and want to always be on the same exact page as their peers then they may question a girl's sem choice. But if you are not a conformist yourself you wouldn't be interested in a guy like that anyway "top" or not.

OOTforlife

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 12:45 pm

Chayalle wrote:

And there's a long stretch between a top boy and someone who is MO. There are plenty of good mainstream boys, including those who are learning, for whom seminary is not necessarily a make-it-or-break-it issue.

I don't want to derail, but I don't see how MO is relevant here at all. I am sure that in the yeshivish community there is indeed a "long stretch between" top boys and whatever the other end of the stretch is. But it has nothing to do with MO.

MO has its own spectrum from extremely learned and scrupulously observant to not learned and/or very relaxed observance. It is its own derech with its own hierarchies and subgroups. MO does not begin at the other end of the yeshivish world's "stretch" that you are describing.

Chayalle

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 12:54 pm

OOTforlife wrote:

You said it better than me.

amother

Lavender

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 1:12 pm

OOTforlife wrote:

Thank you for writing this. I was about to respond but I am so put-off by these constant insulting, ignorant, and inaccurate comments that I needed more time to compose my thoughts.

We have our own quality young adult, with our own haskafa, who are good shidduchim for each other. They are not sloppy seconds to yeshivish. Make no mistake.

sky

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 1:17 pm

I attended the second year of an American seminary to get my degree.
The classes in first and second year were taught very diff then BY. Is it necessary - probably not. But I think it was still very beneficial. But I can’t put into words why.
And by the end of the 2 years you have a full fledged BA in a frum environment while meeting amazing girls from all over.
Maybe it’s like the bridge to real life. Instead of jumping in head first you slowly ease in.

amother

Cobalt

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 1:20 pm

In some ways the practice of sending girls to seminary reminds me of the practice of sending girls to finishing school. It was very popular among the upper classes a hundred years or so ago, and pretty much died out after WW2. The girls would have had their regular education with a governess or at school, and then be sent to continental Europe for a year or two at finishing school. During this period they formed useful contacts and learnt to converse in foreign languages, social graces, music appreciation and flower arranging. These skills were important to their future position in society. Then they went home, entered society and got married. In some circles being 'finished' was considered an essential prerequisite for being married.

A year of intensive Torah learning has far more value than the stereotyped curriculum for finishing school presented above. Both situations are giving older girls a chance to improve themselves and gain skills that are not part of an academic curriculum.

History showed that the finishing school was not nearly so essential as it was once considered. Seminary is also not essential, but a year of intensive Torah learning is invaluable. The material can't be replicated in school, because the environment is wrong. By definition it is a step beyond school, where it is hopefully possible to have a different and more adult attitude.

Rather than a prerequisite for marriage, seminary needs to be a chance for the girls to have a year without distractions, developing themselves to the best they can be, using Torah to help develop them and achieve this goal. It is a chance to permeate themselves with Torah in a way that is hard to do in another environment. If you go to a top seminary in order to marry the best boy, then it is at best a means to a rather doubtful end. If you go in order to immerse yourself in Torah, you've gone way beyond the finishing school aspect, and the year can be of real, permanent value.

amother

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 1:41 pm

amother [ Blue ] wrote:

I didn't read every response, but this was my experience.
I went to a local full day sem in Brooklyn because EY wasn't an option - my parents and I were quite happy with the choice and it was a fraction of the price. Well, the crowd was very different than what I was used to, coming from a Flatbush high school going to a Boro Park sem with chassidish and more yeshivish girls from Lakewood and Monsey also...
And I don't really know how to put it into words, but being in that kind of atmosphere did something, I think.
Yes, sometimes (okay, a lot of times) I felt like the [gentile] in town - I didn't get excited about sefarim and meforshim, I wasn't passionate about teaching and molding yiddishe minds, I read secular books and (gasp!) watched movies - but I found that the more I dwelled on being the "victim", on how no one gets where I'm coming from - the more it prevented me from actually seizing the opportunities for growth. Once I freed myself from that, once I realized that my more yeshivish and chassidish friends were not, in fact, looking down their noses at me or judging me, I was able to focus on absorbing everything that sem had to offer and improving myself at my own pace - and I think that was an amazing thing for me.
I love my seminary friends - I feel like we get each other on a much deeper level than my high school friends (though I love them too, don't worry) and they're the ones that I keep up with a lot more.
I'm not really sure what my point is here, I think it might just be that for me, the benefit of seminary wasn't so much about the seminary itself - it was more about the environment that I spent the year in. And yes, they took us to Israel for a couple of weeks and that was amazing also.
So do I feel like there was a benefit? Definitely.

You probably would have had that same epiphany if you had started college, or begun working in a diverse workplace. You matured, you allowed yourself to change...I dont think that only happens in a place thats called a seminary

amother

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 1:49 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

Honestly I can not justify going into debt to spend 20/30 k a year per girl

However, in places like Lakewood this will be her last year of serious learning forvthe rest of her life
You want to take that away from her too.. Mad

I didnt go to seminary. But I did continue learning.
I went to shiurim. On my own. Without being given a sem schedule of classes to attend.
There is something very powerful about continuing to make ruchniyus a focus of your life, when it comes from you, and not spoonfed from teachers.

It really doesnt have to be from seminary

Mothers

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 2:08 pm

For me - Seminary is about the learning. (E”Y is a bonus if affordable, but certainly not a necessity.) In most cases, however, this is the last chance for a girl to just learn Torah, and girls should be given the opportunity and make the most of it. Once they begin careers and/or motherhood, there will be little (if any) time for learning for many years (think empty nest, retirement, etc.), so they need to gain as much as possible now, to have a strong anchor to hold on to through all the years, when Torah learning will not be realistic for them.

In our case, we were fortunate enough to manage to send our girls to E”Y, and we chose seminaries that are known for a very high level of learning. Had our daughters not been interested and/or accepted, we would not have sent them- as we don’t have $20,000+ for a year of camp. Our daughters love learning and gained immensely from the experience - both in yedias haTorah and in chashivus haTorah.

Certainly not saying that everyone needs to or should go to E”Y, but girls should be encouraged to make the most of their last chance for intensive Torah learning - wherever they find it

SoBlessed

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 2:11 pm

One difference between seminary and HS is the have to vs want to attitude to learning. Where I went to sem (not in EY) it wasn't about what you're "responsible to know", there were no tests and you can choose what you want to focus on. I did go to a teaching program and used my credits toward my BA. As far as marriage Hashkafa, we learned similar ideas toward the end of HS but it didn't hit home till we learned it and discussed it much more in sem. Maybe because we weren't living at home, maybe because it felt more concrete and applicable (don't typically get engaged at 18 where I'm from), may be some other reason...

amother

Blush

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 8:57 pm

My dd stayed local for Sem, I think it helped ease her into the real world (or semi-real world), she is in Sem half a day, working half a day, and college at night. I find it to be a nice transitional year between 12th grade and "nothing". Obviously there are always shiurim and BH she has a great solid foundation, but I think this transitional year benefits the girls. I have another dd that went to EY and her year was really incredible from A to Z, the learning, inspiration, independence, friendships, EY itself and the kedusha. Is it worth 30K? Idk, I can't put a price tag on it, I wouldn't call either Sem in EY or here a necessity, but then again, I don't consider cleaning help weekly or potato kugel for shabbos necessities.

thunderstorm

Thu, Mar 11 2021, 9:30 pm

trixx wrote:

Things that teach a young woman how to build a true Jewish household:

-relationship and communication skills, for shalom bayis
-psychology of self-awareness
-parenting course
-meal planning, food budgeting, cooking skills
-balancing a budget, finances, taxes
-tips and routines for running a household

Things that don't teach a young woman how to build a true Jewish household:
-intense Hebrew studies

I agree. I found my local seminary to be one more year of Highschool and a waste of precious time where I could have been learning life skills. In the end I got engaged during my seminary year and got married before the year was over. So I just dropped out after my engagement with the encouragement of my mechaneches and got a job instead.