about Chassidic Women Davening

Besiyata Dishmaya

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 7:02 am

Motek wrote:

and there is no such thing as "chassidic halachos"

That's because you're not chassidic and don't know much about chassidus. e.g. zman tfilah by many chassidim might be different; the shiur (amount of food or liquid) for certain things might be different. And there are many other halachos that are different. And that's the reason for the dispute between chassidim and misnagdim.

(Some of Lubavitch minhagim and halachos are different than other chassidus.)

Besiyata Dishmaya

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 7:11 am

Hannah! wrote:

For example, if MeThinks grew up in a more modern environment and went to, say, Maimonides before adopting whatever sect of Chassidus she currently belongs to, it isn't too big a stretch to think that she might still remember some of the sources that she learned in elementary school and high school.

MeThinks comes from a chassidic home and has holy chassidic ancestors and knows halachos, in general, probably better than you. Those who aren't chassidic have a hard time with the idea that chassidus have some different halachos and minhagim.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 7:15 am

Imaonwheels wrote:

This is not true. The Chassidishe poskim have developed a shita of their owm since rhe Maggid of Mezeritch requested that the Baal HaTanya compile the Shulchan Aruch HaRav. who, BTW, paskens that women are chayav 2 tefilot but are not bound by time restriction men have or minyan.

I'm sure you're aware that Lubavitch chassidus is different than all the other chassidus - with some different minhagim and halachos.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 7:24 am

mimivan wrote:

MeThinks wrote:

cassandra wrote:

The debate was whether or not a woman is required even that.

The citation is 106:1, by the way (which was in the link Motek posted).

From that article we also see 2 points that proves my point:
1) "it was a rare woman who davened in the olden days. Running a household was an all-consuming task, and many women were illiterate to boot."
2) "The Chafetz Chayim's son reported (Sichos Chafetz Chayim, pg. 13) that his mother rarely davened when her children were young. She said that the Chafetz Chayim exempted her from davening during that period in her life."

if women were all exempted from davening...why would the Chofetz Chaim have to exempt his wife from davening (I'm not challenging I'm just asking)

MOST CHASSIDIC WOMEN DAVEN. We're discussing here if a woman can't or does not feel up to it. It seems that the Chafetz Chaim exempted her from davening because she probably couldn't.

cassandra

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 7:48 am

MeThinks wrote:

MOST CHASSIDIC WOMEN DAVEN. We're discussing here if a woman can't or does not feel up to it. It seems that the Chafetz Chaim exempted her from davening because she probably couldn't.

Aha. So now you are changing your tune again. I thought we were talking about the ikar hadin of whether women have to daven, and now you are saying that we are talking about whether they have to daven when there are extenuating circumstances. Well, there are extenuating circumstances that would allow a man to skip davening too, so I'm not quite sure what your point is.

Also, an anecdote does not have the same weight as halacha itself.

cassandra

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 7:52 am

MeThinks wrote:

Quote:

Furthermore, if you are asserting that kabbalah can uproot halacha then I am very worried. That sounds kind of New Testament-ish to me.

This is an old dispute between chassidim and misnagdim.

Well, perhaps the debate is worth rehashing, because if this is the case then I do not for one minute accept the popular premise on this site that "We should respect each other's practice as long as we are following our Rav" Is the Torah not enough of a revelation that it needed to be replaced/supplanted by a second revelation? Do you seriously mean this? Because if you do this discussion is over as I have no intention of engaging a kofer.

cassandra

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 7:54 am

MeThinks wrote:

cassandra wrote:

hannah, I'm also having a lot of trouble believing her. Too much inconsistency.

Examples, please.

Like the fact that you freak out about women in women's publications in your home, yet you seem to have the Internet in your home. The fact that you claim that you just do, you don't ask, yet you keep pressing the point on a halachic level....

Besiyata Dishmaya

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 7:55 am

cassandra wrote:

MeThinks wrote:

MOST CHASSIDIC WOMEN DAVEN. We're discussing here if a woman can't or does not feel up to it. It seems that the Chafetz Chaim exempted her from davening because she probably couldn't.

Davening and being obligated to daven are 2 different things. And this is what the entire discussion is all about whether women are obligated to daven just like men.

Besiyata Dishmaya

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 8:07 am

cassandra wrote:

Having internet is a completely different topic.

In general, the internet is not laying around for others to see as are publications. Besides, in our home the internet is never open when there are men around and the computer with internet is mine personally. Instead of being motzi shem ra, you should find out the facts.

cassandra

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 8:13 am

So why not hide your women's publications in your underwear drawer? They don't need to be lying around either. And do the men in your home not know how to turn on the computer? The potential for a man to see something that would lead to inappropriate thoughts is about a billion times greater if you have the Internet in your house then if you have a magazine with three pictures of tzniusly dressed women.

Last edited by cassandra on Fri, Mar 14 2008, 8:26 am; edited 1 time in total

Besiyata Dishmaya

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 8:26 am

cassandra wrote:

So why not hide your women's publications in your underwear drawer? They don't need to be lying around either. And do the men in your home not know how to turn on the computer?

Why are you posting this here? There's another thread for this topic.

If there's any publication with a picture of women on it, it is never left in the open. Sometimes certain items or instructions come with such a picture. e.g. bills, clothing, etc. And no, the men/boys do not have the internet password.

gryp

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 8:53 am

MeThinks wrote:

GR wrote:

I don't know, we're obligated in shofar and zachor too, and again I don't see the connection to Kabbalastic minhagim.

Do Chaseedishe ladies hold that they aren't obligated to hear every word of the megillah as well? I'm just throwing out whatever's coming to mind, the few times a year I actually go to shul.

Of course chassidishe woman know that they must hear every word of the Megilah.

Do you as a woman repeat shemone esreh if you forget to say yaaleh veyovo?

I asked if Chaseedishe women are obligated to hear every word of the Megillah. The question makes perfect sense to me, since it's a time-bound mitzvah and not easy for a mother to get to shul, which is why I presume you don't hear shofar, parshas zachor, and I don't know what else, which is why I asked.

I don't know what that has to do with saying shmone esrei over again if you forgot yaaleh v'yavo. Obviously those who daven will do it, and those who don't daven, it won't happen to them.

cassandra

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 9:06 am

GR wrote:

I don't know what that has to do with saying shmone esrei over again if you forgot yaaleh v'yavo. Obviously those who daven will do it, and those who don't daven, it won't happen to them.

If you forget yaaleh v'yavo in Maariv there are some who argue that S"E should no be repeated since it is a reshus. There are those who argue otherwise, but for the most part people agree that women who forget yaaleh v'yavo in maariv should NOT repeat it since it's really a reshus. So maybe her reasoning is that if formal tefilah is a reshus for women then they would not have to repeat yaaleh v'yavo since they don't need to "fulfill" anything with their tefilah.

Hannah!

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 10:50 am

MeThinks wrote:

Hannah! wrote:

MeThinks wrote:

cassandra wrote:

Whatever. I've proven my point.

And so have I. As chassidim, we rely completely on Rabbonim and Dayonim. No questions asked for sources and proof.

Are you sure? Earlier today, you posted on the "Photos of Women" thread:

MeThinks wrote:

Bamidmar 15:39, See Rambam Mitzvas 47.

If a source is known, why not quote?

That's my entire point. You said upthread that Chassidim like you do NOT know sources, and do NOT quote.

Hannah!

Fri, Mar 14 2008, 10:57 am

MeThinks wrote:

Hannah! wrote:

If you read my posts above (if you didn't, I certainly don't fault you -- God knows that I myself don't read every post in a thread before jumping in) you'll see that I never take issue with the fact that Chassidim follow a different derech. There are many types of Chassidus, each has their own derech, and I don't argue issues based on the Chassidic derech unless I happen to know about the particular type of Chassidus's approach to the specific issue at hand.

In general, I don't know how ANY branch of Chassidus approaches a woman's obligation to daven, so I haven't argued that point. I also haven't argued your level of education, so please don't go around being nasty. There's no need to go there.

I DID point out an inconsistency, in that in one thread you claim that Chassidim in general don't know mekoros for halachic opinions and aren't bothered by that, and in a different thread give a specific mukor. When another poster used that as evidence that you may be trolling, I came up with a perfectly legitimate potential explanation -- you'll note that while there is no mitzvah to be nasty to people that disagree with you, there is a mitzvah to be don be'kof zechus.

My explanation may have been wrong, but there is no need to get nasty as a means of "thanking" me for having defended you.

Last edited by Hannah! on Fri, Mar 14 2008, 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total