"White lie" re giyur status on shul membership application?

southernbubby

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 6:50 pm

amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:

The only problem I see is if the community you are moving into has a takana against conversion, such as the Syrian community.
Not saying it’s right, but if thats the community then it’s much more than a little white lie.

The Syrian community is basically for Syrian Jews but regardless of what objections people have against gerim, gerim have a right to privacy and as I said upthread, I don't blame anyone who keeps quiet about his background when davening in a Syrian shul. I am not sure how often anyone besides Syrian Jews daven there.
I wonder how a non Syrian rav would answer if the grandson of a ger would ask if he is allowed to deceive the Syrian community by neglecting to disclose or lying about his background. Probably this individual will find a more suitable place for himself to daven.

amother

Oak

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 8:17 pm

amother [ Black ] wrote:

I would skip it. Maybe skip another random box like "gender" for your son who has an obvious boys name. (Not like Sam which could be both a boy and a girl).
We have a similar situation. Everyone thinks DH is a BT but really is a Ger as his mom didn't have a kosher geirus. We don't want to shame anyone or have weird questions so he asked the shaila- gets called to the Torah under his father's name but our kesuba has Ben Avraham (the Rav who read it at the wedding knows the story and used my FIL's name but that has no halachic implication as the actual kesuba has the "right one").
We don't announce it, my kids have no reason to know (I am FFB and no geirim on my side so no yichus concerns). We love my MIL and have a close relationship with her and the whole family.
Only a few people know- my parents, the couple Rabbanim we ask shailas to- because it makes a big difference in terms of psak Halacha.
And it is Deoritah to not embarrass any Ger. And I do my best to not violate that one by not bringing it up, discussing etc unless absolutely needed. I say he is a BT. Why do people make it a big deal and cause so much pain to Geirim over it??

You know what's crazy? I read this and thought 'did I somehow write this and then totally forget?!' My story is almost identical to yours.

amother

Mustard

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 8:38 pm

amother [ Black ] wrote:

What difference does it make in terms of psak halacha?

amother

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 8:40 pm

Petra wrote:

This thread emphasizes the fact that geirim are thought of as "second class" even though nobody likes to say it out loud.

This is completely right. I know if it was out in the open that I'm a convert nobody would think much about it. They'd be surprised that I was a convert and figure I was born with a Jewish soul and accept me as a real Jew.

But the other converts that I know -- particularly the All-American blonde hair, blue eyed girls, the Asian girls and the Black guys -- we all know that some people are always questioning them and don't see them as "real Jews." Nobody likes to say it though.

amother

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 8:47 pm

By the way, to those suggesting that I tell the shul rabbi privately, I'm not inclined to do so. I don't know him, and I don't know if I can trust him, and he runs a shul that asks the unnecessary question in the first place. Maybe if we're in the community for a while and I know I can trust him and I'm going to him with shailahs and for family advice already, I'd feel comfortable telling him. But now? No way.

If you ask why I'm moving to a community where I'm not inclined to trust the rabbi, I would say that the community has several shuls I could go to and this shul even has multiple rabbis, so I'm not really wedded to this particular shul.

southernbubby

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 9:33 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I asked my neighbor, who learns in kollel and is Chassidishe, and while he can't pasken, he did say that nobody loses anything if you lie. If you tell the airlines that your 2 year old is under 2, the lie costs them something but you don't owe these people the truth. They don't need your personal information.
I once had to send pictures of the grave of my maternal great grandmother so that one of my kids could get married. Sometimes people need proof that you are really Jewish but they don't need proof just so that you can be a shul member.

amother

Gold

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 9:51 pm

(I'm a convert of 20 years who does not disclose or share a my status with others including friends. Most people, I assume, think I am a BT.)

Yes, it's on all kinds of things, including yeshiva/day school and shul membership applications. Customarily, converts also have to provide a copy of conversion papers (imagine having to attach copies of your kesuba to a camp application for your teen... that's what it feels like, lol)

OP, If you're joining the shul, I feel like this is not even a question. I am surprised by your rav's advice, actually. Seems like OF COURSE they would need to know. If something were to come up where the shul's rabbi needed to know your status, would you then disclose it? (and how would that feel to have to "come clean," for lack of a better expression). wondering

I have been the member of a new shul for less than a year and the rabbi only has met me a couple of times (I'm not venturing out much due to covid), but I can think of 2 times already--in just the last couple of months--when it was relevant.

amother

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 10:34 pm

amother [ Gold ] wrote:

OP, If you're joining the shul, I feel like this is not even a question. I am surprised by your rav's advice, actually. Seems like OF COURSE they would need to know. If something were to come up where the shul's rabbi needed to know your status, would you then disclose it? (and how would that feel to have to "come clean," for lack of a better expression). wondering

My "status" is I'm Jewish and my kids are Jewish, just as much as the rabbi is and just as much as his kids are. Why would he need to know my "status" unless *I* chose to go to him for a shailah or advice for how to deal with non-Jewish family?

Until kids are shidduch age, I can't imagine what could possibly come up where the rabbi would need to know I'm a convert.

Quote:

Yes, it's on all kinds of things, including yeshiva/day school and shul membership applications. Customarily, converts also have to provide a copy of conversion papers (imagine having to attach copies of your kesuba to a camp application for your teen... that's what it feels like, lol)

See, this is what I don't get. Why are converts singled out and made to "show your papers" every which way. Why aren't Jews by birth required to show their papers to prove they're Jews by birth?

Just someone can lie that they're a convert when they're not, anyone can lie and say they're Jewish by birth when they're not.

Just someone can mistakenly believe that they're a convert when their conversion is fishy, anyone can mistakenly believe they're Jewish by birth when they have some yichus problem.

Why is no summer camp checking "papers" for those who claim to be Jewish by birth? Because it's ridiculously intrusive and unnecessary, and nobody would stand for it. So why should converts stand for showing their "papers" at every which way?

LittleRed

Thu, Apr 08 2021, 11:18 pm

In my experience with geirim who have kept it quiet, it isn't so much that they're afraid of poor treatment or ashamed, more that it's unusual and why give random people something to discuss? Even if the discussion is completely genuine and kind, many people don't care to have their past out there for everyone to know. These geirim aren't hiding their history from friends or anyone else who has reason to know them. Especially in the OP's case, it's probably more that she doesn't want to be seen as a stereotype of a ger who started from scratch. Even though there are many kinds of converts, her background more similarly lines up with what people think a BT is. I know lots of private people who don't put out tons of personal info in general. Sometimes it's a personality thing too. I'm not naive to how some people and communities treat BT and geirim but I don't think this thread shows that they are always treated as second and third class Jews.

amother

Turquoise

Fri, Apr 09 2021, 12:44 am

Listen, ftr, I am ffb with yichus like that has anything to do with me, it is none of their business. None. The shul secretary does not need this info. Neither does the rabbi until and unless you go to him with a shaila related to this topic. Unless he is giving you an aliya shock

maybe. In which case it still does not need to be written on a form. It is not the secretarys business nor anyone else who works there. If you are private, you are private. Just because someone asks doesn't mean you need to violate your boundaries and tell strangers for no purpose. Whatever. I would not lie and write "No", I would do it dash, n/a or leave blank.

amother

Amber

Fri, Apr 09 2021, 2:11 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Do you think it's an acceptable "white lie" to not disclose that I'm a convert on a shul membership application?

Dad is Jewish, mom did a non-orthodox conversion, grew up thinking I was Jewish, started becoming frum, realized my mom's conversion was a problem, and did an orthodox conversion with a highly respected beis din.

We're moving to a new area and the shul membership app asks if you're a convert. I've kept the conversion very private, and only a few trusted people know about it. Nobody would have any clue that I'm a convert -- Jewish maiden name, I don't "look" g*ishe, etc.

I asked our rav about the question on the app, and he said he thinks it's inappropriate for them to be asking (especially if we just have one baby and we're nowhere near shidduch years) and he doesn't like that shuls ask this.

I didn't want to ask him if it's acceptable to tell a white lie and just say no I'm not a convert. I'm curious what imamother thinks. Am I allowed to tell a white lie to spare my kid(s) potential embarrassment? I want to be able to explain things to my kid(s) on my timeline, and I don't want word getting around and they find out about it from some other kid on the playground. Who knows how many people in the shul office are seeing this application, and who knows who is going to keep what confidential. It's none of anyone's business, IMHO.

No one here can give you a heter to tell a lie. A Rov can give it to you so you’d have to ask a shaila from someone who will give you a psak.

southernbubby

Fri, Apr 09 2021, 9:06 am

amother [ Amber ] wrote:

No one here can give you a heter to tell a lie. A Rov can give it to you so you’d have to ask a shaila from someone who will give you a psak.

True but there are times when apparently people are allowed to fudge the truth such as rabbonim who allow shadchanim to be vague about the age in order to get a foot in the door.
If there is anywhere on the form for additional comments, leave the question blank and then comment that in solidarity with gerim, you are refusing to answer a divisive, discriminatory and obnoxious question since it's known that gerim are not given the respect that they deserve.