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-> Interesting Discussions
b.chadash
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 Wed, Jul 14 2021, 12:38 am
| Mothers wrote: | Seems to me that Men are being rewarded for the sin of the meraglim (I.e. because they sinned as an eidah - they get to say devarim she’b’kedushah and bring down the Shechina, which is something that Women - who didn’t commit that sin - can never do  .) |
I hear your point, but I think what you are saying is kind of the inverse of what Rabbi Breitowitz was saying.
What he is saying is that men are enjoined to sanctify Hashem's name because they desecrated it with the sin of the meraglim. The women, who loved the Land and had greater emuna, did not participate in this desecration. Men need to rectify the chilul Hashem they caused by sancrifying Hashem through tefilla betzibbur.
So it's not that they are being rewarded, but that they need this vehicle to correct the problem. It's like saying someone is so lucky he gets to wear glasses. But you don't need glasses!
In the mashal of the dessert, it's more like the men have to eat diet food because they need to watch their weight, while women can eat freely because they dont have the same problem with their weight. We never had the problem of chilul Hashem so we cannot and fo not need to rectify it.
Also, we can sanctify Hashem's name in many other ways outside of minyan.
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b.chadash
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 12:44 am
This is interesting. I thought that this thought is Rabbi Breitowits's chiddush.
But I just found this on Wikipedia under Minyan:
A possible reason why it is men who were obligated to form a congregation in order to convene the Divine Presence is that women were individually considered sufficiently holy and did not require the combination of a group and special prayers to achieve added holiness deficient in men. Due to the righteousness of the women in the wilderness, they did not suffer the same deadly fate as their male counterparts, and despite the spies’ negative report about the holy land, wished to enter it.[16] Others point to the sociological reality that women were traditionally expected to care for the house and children. The Jewish tradition did not require women to leave their social role to engage in public prayer.[17]
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honeymoon
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 12:49 am
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I just heard the first reason explained by Rabbi Y. Y. Jacobson and found it very enlightening. Thank you.
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Mothers
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 1:01 am
| b.chadash wrote: | I hear your point, but I think what you are saying is kind of the inverse of what Rabbi Breitowitz was saying.
What he is saying is that men are enjoined to sanctify Hashem's name because they desecrated it with the sin of the meraglim. The women, who loved the Land and had greater emuna, did not participate in this desecration. Men need to rectify the chilul Hashem they caused by sancrifying Hashem through tefilla betzibbur.
So it's not that they are being rewarded, but that they need this vehicle to correct the problem. It's like saying someone is so lucky he gets to wear glasses. But you don't need glasses!
In the mashal of the dessert, it's more like the men have to eat diet food because they need to watch their weight, while women can eat freely because they dont have the same problem with their weight. We never had the problem of chilul Hashem so we cannot and fo not need to rectify it.
Also, we can sanctify Hashem's name in many other ways outside of minyan. |
What I’m saying is exactly the inverse of what Rabbi Breitowitz is saying.
The analogy of needing/receiving eyeglasses does not match this situation. If someone cannot bring down the Shechina as an individual (analogous to poor eyesight) but is able to bring down the Shechina with a minyan (analogous to glasses correcting vision) that’s great!!! OTOH - not being able to bring down the Shechina (even in a group) is equivalent to being blind beyond the possibility of corrective lenses and requiring the assistance of those with eyeglasses to lead one around . . . How is that a good thing? It means that eyeglasses would not help - not that it would not be desirable if they would . . .
This could all work for me if women could say devarim sheb’kedushah and bring down the Shechina without a minyan (because women don’t need that tikkun, etc.), but somehow - according to this explanation - because women had greater emunah, etc. - we don’t get to say devarim sheb’kedusha and bring down the Shechina at all - not alone or in a group!!! How is that a reward for our emunah and refraining from sin?
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b.chadash
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 1:02 am
| honeymoon wrote: | | I just heard the first reason explained by Rabbi Y. Y. Jacobson and found it very enlightening. Thank you. |
Really? That's ironic. (Because it was in Rabbi Brietowitzes shiur of yesterday.) Can you post the link to the shiur? Or the title
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Mothers
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 1:07 am
| b.chadash wrote: | This is interesting. I thought that this thought is Rabbi Breitowits's chiddush.
But I just found this on Wikipedia under Minyan:
A possible reason why it is men who were obligated to form a congregation in order to convene the Divine Presence is that women were individually considered sufficiently holy and did not require the combination of a group and special prayers to achieve added holiness deficient in men. Due to the righteousness of the women in the wilderness, they did not suffer the same deadly fate as their male counterparts, and despite the spies’ negative report about the holy land, wished to enter it.[16] Others point to the sociological reality that women were traditionally expected to care for the house and children. The Jewish tradition did not require women to leave their social role to engage in public prayer.[17] |
I’m not getting this. Where do we see that women are individually more holy than men? Men can combine to form a congregation in order to convene the Divine Presence. Women are not sufficiently holy to convene the Divine Presence - whether individually or in a group.
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salt
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 1:07 am
| Mothers wrote: | What I’m saying is exactly the inverse of what Rabbi Breitowitz is saying.
The analogy of needing/receiving eyeglasses does not match this situation. If someone cannot bring down the Shechina as an individual (analogous to poor eyesight) but is able to bring down the Shechina with a minyan (analogous to glasses correcting vision) that’s great!!! OTOH - not being able to bring down the Shechina (even in a group) is equivalent to being blind beyond the possibility of corrective lenses and requiring the assistance of those with eyeglasses to lead one around . . . How is that a good thing? It means that eyeglasses would not help - not that it would not be desirable if they would . . .
This could all work for me if women could say devarim sheb’kedushah and bring down the Shechina without a minyan (because women don’t need that tikkun, etc.), but somehow - according to this explanation - because women had greater emunah, etc. - we don’t get to say devarim sheb’kedusha and bring down the Shechina at all - not alone or in a group!!! How is that a reward for our emunah and refraining from sin? |
Where does that idea come from? That davening in a minyan brings down the shechina?
Are you saying that only the person himself who is saying the kedusha/kaddish/etc is the one who brings down the shechina? Or the minyan as a whole?
No one is stopping a woman going to daven in a minyan. I don't think I know any women, even single or without children, and even the most feminist, who go and daven in a minyan on a regular basis 3 times a day.
I think what it mainly boils down to is that women are not chayav because davening bazman is a מצוות עשה שהזמן גרמה .
But I do like the ideas brought here.
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b.chadash
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 1:12 am
| Mothers wrote: | What I’m saying is exactly the inverse of what Rabbi Breitowitz is saying.
The analogy of needing/receiving eyeglasses does not match this situation. If someone cannot bring down the Shechina as an individual (analogous to poor eyesight) but is able to bring down the Shechina with a minyan (analogous to glasses correcting vision) that’s great!!! OTOH - not being able to bring down the Shechina (even in a group) is equivalent to being blind beyond the possibility of corrective lenses and requiring the assistance of those with eyeglasses to lead one around . . . How is that a good thing? It means that eyeglasses would not help - not that it would not be desirable if they would . . .
This could all work for me if women could say devarim sheb’kedushah and bring down the Shechina without a minyan (because women don’t need that tikkun, etc.), but somehow - according to this explanation - because women had greater emunah, etc. - we don’t get to say devarim sheb’kedusha and bring down the Shechina at all - not alone or in a group!!! How is that a reward for our emunah and refraining from sin? |
Again, the idea is that women can bring down the shechina without the devarim shebikdusha, and without a minyan. To quote the Wikipedia piece again : women were individually considered sufficiently holy and did not require the combination of a group and special prayers to achieve added holiness deficient in men.
At least that is my understanding. So it means that men need the glasses to see. Women don't need the glasss to see, but can achieve all that men can without the glasses.
I think what you are having a hard time with is the idea that the only way to bring down the shechina is with kedusha and kaddish. And I submit to you that that is not the only way. That is the way for men, but women can be mekadesh shem shamayim without a minyan.
Besides, women can say devarim shebikdusha together with a minyan, just like any other man. She just wont be counted for a minyan. There's a difference. Rebbetzin kanievsky used to daven 3 times a day with minyan in the Lederman shul. She would join from her porch ( I believe) and say kedusha from there.
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Mothers
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 1:14 am
| salt wrote: | Where does that idea come from? That davening in a minyan brings down the shechina?
Are you saying that only the person himself who is saying the kedusha/kaddish/etc is the one who brings down the shechina? Or the minyan as a whole?
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“The Minyan
Why we need ten people to pray? what special in this ten persons?
Rabbi Eliezer Melamed
1. The Virtue of a Minyan
When ten Jews are engaged in Torah or prayer, the Shechinah dwells among them, as it says (Psalms 82:1), "God is present in a Godly congregation." Although the Shechinah dwells even with one Jew who prays or learns individually, nevertheless, different levels exist. The highest level is when ten Jews are engaged in a matter of sanctity (davar shebikedushah), for then holiness is revealed to the world (see Berachot 6a). Based on this, the Chachamim established that all matters of sanctity be recited in a minyan. These include: Chazarat HaShatz (the repetition of the Amidah), Birkat Kohanim (the priestly blessing), Barchu, Kaddish, and the Torah reading (Megillah 23b).1
The Chachamim state that a prayer recited together with the congregation (b’tzibur) is accepted, as is written (Psalms 55:19), "He redeems me unharmed from the battle against me, for those with me are many." Even when a congregation prays without full kavanah, HaKadosh Baruch Hu does not turn away from the prayers of the many (Berachot 8a). Although any prayer recited amongst ten Jews is more meaningful and accepted, the essence of communal prayer is ten Jews jointly praying the Shemoneh Esrei, also known as the Amidah.
Hence, praying in a minyan provides two benefits: first, in a minyan one may recite all those matters of sanctity that the Chachamim instituted; second, communal prayer is accepted on the merit of the congregation.
Since the Shechinah dwells in the midst of a minyan, every person should try to be one of the first ten people to arrive for prayer. If a person cannot be one of the first ten people to arrive for Shacharit, he should try to be one of the first for Minchah or Ma’ariv (Shulchan Aruch, 90:14; Ben Ish Chai, Miketz 1). . .”
For more, see: https://www.yeshiva.co/midrash/26979
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b.chadash
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 1:18 am
| Mothers wrote: | | I’m not getting this. Where do we see that women are individually more holy than men? Men can combine to form a congregation in order to convene the Divine Presence. Women are not sufficiently holy to convene the Divine Presence - whether individually or in a group. |
As far as I understand, it would go like this...
Originally, before the cheit hameraglim, each individual could on his or her own bring down the shechina. Each jew is holy.
Once the men sinned at cheit hameraglim, they lost spme of that holiness. They now needed to join ten men together in order to achieve what they originally could do on their own. But the women never lost it.
If we accept the link between cheit hameraglim and minyan, meaning men needing rectification for the sin, we must assume that before the sin they did not need a minyan. Makes sense?
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Mothers
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 1:19 am
| b.chadash wrote: | Again, the idea is that women can bring down the shechina without the devarim shebikdusha, and without a minyan. To quote the Wikipedia piece again : women were individually considered sufficiently holy and did not require the combination of a group and special prayers to achieve added holiness deficient in men.
At least that is my understanding. So it means that men need the glasses to see. Women don't need the glasss to see, but can achieve all that men can without the glasses.
I think what you are having a hard time with is the idea that the only way to bring down the shechina is with kedusha and kaddish. And I submit to you that that is not the only way. That is the way for men, but women can be mekadesh shem shamayim without a minyan.
Besides, women can say devarim shebikdusha together with a minyan, just like any other man. She just wont be counted for a minyan. There's a difference. Rebbetzin kanievsky used to daven 3 times a day with minyan in the Lederman shul. She would join from her porch ( I believe) and say kedusha from there. |
What is the source for Wikipedia’s assertion? 1 woman or 10 women, or 100 women are not enough to say devarim sheb’kedusha, which can be said by 10 men. How does that make individual women more holy than men?
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b.chadash
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 1:21 am
| Mothers wrote: | “The Minyan
Why we need ten people to pray? what special in this ten persons?
Rabbi Eliezer Melamed
1. The Virtue of a Minyan
When ten Jews are engaged in Torah or prayer, the Shechinah dwells among them, as it says (Psalms 82:1), "God is present in a Godly congregation." Although the Shechinah dwells even with one Jew who prays or learns individually, nevertheless, different levels exist. The highest level is when ten Jews are engaged in a matter of sanctity (davar shebikedushah), for then holiness is revealed to the world (see Berachot 6a). Based on this, the Chachamim established that all matters of sanctity be recited in a minyan. These include: Chazarat HaShatz (the repetition of the Amidah), Birkat Kohanim (the priestly blessing), Barchu, Kaddish, and the Torah reading (Megillah 23b).1
The Chachamim state that a prayer recited together with the congregation (b’tzibur) is accepted, as is written (Psalms 55:19), "He redeems me unharmed from the battle against me, for those with me are many." Even when a congregation prays without full kavanah, HaKadosh Baruch Hu does not turn away from the prayers of the many (Berachot 8a). Although any prayer recited amongst ten Jews is more meaningful and accepted, the essence of communal prayer is ten Jews jointly praying the Shemoneh Esrei, also known as the Amidah.
Hence, praying in a minyan provides two benefits: first, in a minyan one may recite all those matters of sanctity that the Chachamim instituted; second, communal prayer is accepted on the merit of the congregation.
Since the Shechinah dwells in the midst of a minyan, every person should try to be one of the first ten people to arrive for prayer. If a person cannot be one of the first ten people to arrive for Shacharit, he should try to be one of the first for Minchah or Ma’ariv (Shulchan Aruch, 90:14; Ben Ish Chai, Miketz 1). . .”
For more, see: https://www.yeshiva.co/midrash/26979 |
This is all after the fact. Meaning, after cheit hameraglim, minyan was instituted and therefore that becomes the highest level of receiving the shechina.
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Mothers
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 1:21 am
| b.chadash wrote: | As far as I understand, it would go like this...
Originally, before the cheit hameraglim, each individual could on his or her own bring down the shechina. Each jew is holy.
Once the men sinned at cheit hameraglim, they lost spme of that holiness. They now needed to join ten men together in order to achieve what they originally could do on their own. But the women never lost it.
If we accept the link between cheit hameraglim and minyan, meaning men needing rectification for the sin, we must assume that before the sin they did not need a minyan. Makes sense? |
If women never lost their holiness, then why can’t women continue to bring down the shechina as individuals (or as a group)?
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b.chadash
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 1:24 am
| Mothers wrote: | | What is the source for Wikipedia’s assertion? 1 woman or 10 women, or 100 women are not enough to say devarim sheb’kedusha, which can be said by 10 men. How does that make individual women more holy than men? |
Wikipedia's source is Lisa Aiken, To be a Jewish Woman. I don't know what her source is.( Maybe someone who has the book can check)
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salt
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 1:26 am
| Mothers wrote: | | If women never lost their holiness, then why can’t women continue to bring down the shechina as individuals (or as a group)? |
I think b.chadash is saying that they can.
Anyway, I think we should all just concentrate of davening with as much kavana as possible, and not worry about who is holier than who. Each individual should try and be holier than they were the day before.
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DrMom
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 1:28 am
| BrisketBoss wrote: | They all have their own reason AFAIK.
Some people, like Ema of 4, just aren't very curious. |
I agree with Ema of 4, and not because I am "not very curious" (that was sort of a snide remark), but because I don't seek a complicated explanation when a simple one covers it.
Personally, I find legal explanations more satisfying than more spiritually based explanations. You can chalk it up to a difference in hashkafa, but please do not label people like me "uncurious." We just have a different approach to yahadut.
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b.chadash
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 1:32 am
| Mothers wrote: | | If women never lost their holiness, then why can’t women continue to bring down the shechina as individuals (or as a group)? |
Again, this is just my own understanding....
I think women CAN bring down the shechina in many ways. Just not in the same way men do.
Saying kedusha and kaddish is reserved for the institution of minyan. Women don't need that in order to be mekadesh shem Hashem. But they can join a minyan if they want to, just as any other man. They just cant form the minyan.
As an aside, I once heard Rabbi Nissel talk about women and tefilla and he spoke about the interesting dichotomy we see on this subject within the frum world. On the one hand we see that women are not obligated in tefila in the same way as men, and we are repeatedly told that our main job is to take care of the home and kids. On the other, we always hear about a mother's prayers, that women are connected to tefila, that the very laws of tefilla come from a woman...
I think that we have to straddle that fine line of understanding that tefilla is intrinsically more natural to women than men, and we should constantly have a prayer on our lips, but at the same time, organized tefilla is not the way to achieve that closeness with Hashem.
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honeymoon
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 1:32 am
| b.chadash wrote: | | Really? That's ironic. (Because it was in Rabbi Brietowitzes shiur of yesterday.) Can you post the link to the shiur? Or the title |
Its called "Discovering the Feminine Torah." Its an old lecture but I only came across it this week.
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b.chadash
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 1:42 am
| DrMom wrote: | I agree with Ema of 4, and not because I am "not very curious" (that was sort of a snide remark), but because I don't seek a complicated explanation when a simple one covers it.
Personally, I find legal explanations more satisfying than more spiritually based explanations. You can chalk it up to a difference in hashkafa, but please do not label people like me "uncurious." We just have a different approach to yahadut. |
That's fair. I just want to point out that Emaof 4 said that tefilla is not a chiyuv, when in fact it is. ORGANIZED tefilla is not (according to the Rambam, while the Ramban disagrees.) In any case, minyan is not a chiyuv for men either. It is a very important precept but not a chiyuv.
As far as the "not being curious" remark, Rabbi Breitowitz actually prefaced his remarks by saying something like "This is good to know because maybe some of you will end up as shul Rabbis. For some people this will not be a satisfactory answer because nothing will. [Meaning, for those feminists who just have an agenda, no answer will be good]."
I also have never been too curious about this question, having just assumed that it has to do with a mitzvas aseh shehazman grama, and also because it's too difficult to run to minyan 3 times a day when you are supposed to be raising your kids (who would baabysit???)
However, I still found his answers to be very satisfying and interesting, and that is why I shared them. They may not be the only answers. There are often many answers to the same question.
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Ema of 5
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Wed, Jul 14 2021, 3:50 am
| DrMom wrote: | I agree with Ema of 4, and not because I am "not very curious" (that was sort of a snide remark), but because I don't seek a complicated explanation when a simple one covers it.
Personally, I find legal explanations more satisfying than more spiritually based explanations. You can chalk it up to a difference in hashkafa, but please do not label people like me "uncurious." We just have a different approach to yahadut. |
Thank you. Yes, it’s not because “I’m not curious” it’s because fluff answers don’t work for me.
It’s very nice that keeping hilchos nidda may be good for a marriage (and yet there are plenty that suffer from it) but that’s not why we do it. We do it because the torah tells us to. It’s the same thing here. I don’t need to be “holier” than a man or closer to hashem or whatever. The bottom line is, my obligations in tefilla are different than a mans, so it makes sense that I wouldn’t be able to be counted in a minyan.
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