Spending money when others are in need

Clarissa

Wed, May 14 2008, 6:41 pm

cassandra wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

Thank you, no. Your team enables very wealthy people and corporations to have all sorts of ways to avoid giving. I'd rather risk giving to things I find irksome, as long as there's some effort to give to those who need it.

And those tax shelters and seemingly unjust laws are allowing Bill Gates and Warren Buffet to improve schools in this country as well as save countless African lives. For a liberal you seem to have a very low opinion of humanity. Give us some credit.

How many Warren Buffets and Bill Gateses are out there? Let's be honest about how 99.9% of these tax shelters are used.

cassandra

Wed, May 14 2008, 6:48 pm

Clarissa wrote:

How many Warren Buffets and Bill Gateses are out there? Let's be honest about how 99.9% of these tax shelters are used.

True, but maybe it's because nobody ever gave them the chance. Maybe we need some sort of Head Start for CEOs whereby they learn that just because they got where they are by being cutthroat it is not too late for them to change their ways and be highly giving people. Perhaps they too are victims of circumstance, acting the way they do because nobody ever told them they could do otherwise. Maybe they are what they are by accident of professional birth. But deep down they want to give too.

Clarissa

Wed, May 14 2008, 6:54 pm

cassandra wrote:

And if I click my heals together and say that there's no place like home, will I somehow be back on the farm with my Auntie Em?

gonewiththewind

Wed, May 14 2008, 6:58 pm

louche wrote:

miriamf wrote:

As much as you love your washing machine it will never love you back. .

I don't know about that. If you measure love not in terms of what one says but in terms of what one does, that wash machine loves her back very, very much. Give me the strong, silent type any time: "I love you" is cheap, but clean clothes are priceless.

Very, very profound. Now that I think of it, my husband gets his clothes dirty and my washing machine gets them clean, so score 1 for the washing machine. I guess my husband was right about being worried about what kind of ideas I might pick up on a message board. Lucky for him I can't run off with the washing machine. It's not portable.

gonewiththewind

Wed, May 14 2008, 6:59 pm

Clarissa wrote:

cassandra wrote:

And if I click my heals together and say that there's no place like home, will I somehow be back on the farm with my Auntie Em?

No you will be back in your playdoughy, matzo crumby apartment. Can't escape that easy.

Clarissa

Wed, May 14 2008, 7:05 pm

I just want to clarify something, although I don't need to for Miriamf, who knows me better than I know myself. This is for the others.

I love my Kitchen Aid mixer, purchased over 30 years ago by my parents, because it's a wonderful workhorse of a mixer. I can't believe how great that mixer is. I love my washing machine because I live in a city where a washing machine in an apartment is a rare and wonderful thing, especially in my building, where they're usually not permitted. I read an article in the Times that said that the value of an UES apartment went down by about $375,000 when the coop took away washing machine privileges. So they're precious, and I'm grateful for mine. And not for the reason Cassandra hinted at, although I'm sure she's off now washing her brain out with soap for that one. My grandmother once bought me a coat for my birthday, in college. It was my favorite coat ever.

I'm not materialistic. I'm the opposite of materialistic. I take nothing for granted. I think my Kenmore washer is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I also don't take sliced bread for granted.

It's okay to love and appreciate certain things, right?

Fox

Wed, May 14 2008, 7:08 pm

Clarissa wrote:

Wealthy people and corporations don't keep their money in shoeboxes, hidden from the rest of us. Even the most rapacious have to do something with their assets -- invest them or spend them. And when they invest them, even in stupid investments, or spend them, even foolishly, that means jobs are created, families are supported, and $150 purses are purchased.

In fact, since we believe that enabling someone to earn a living is the highest form of tzedekkah, a decent argument could be mounted that wealthy people and corporations are far more charitable than someone who simply gives away money.

Actually, P.J. O'Rouke makes that argument far more elegantly than I can, albeit with more profanity, in Eat the Rich, a book which I wholeheartedly recommend for anyone who snoozed through economics or anyone who contrasts the awful poverty in the world with the incredible wealth and thinks, "Why can't something be done about this?"

Bill and Melinda Gates are doing a fine thing by improving health in Africa, but the real test will be whether Steve Ballmer tries to squash their startups!

cassandra

Wed, May 14 2008, 7:12 pm

Clarissa wrote:

Yes, it's ok to love things. To me, the things you list are necessities and not luxuries. But that's because you have your head screwed on more tightly than I do. I would love to be like you in terms of my relationship to material things, actually, like most of you who posted here.

gonewiththewind

Wed, May 14 2008, 7:42 pm

Clarissa wrote:

When I read this post I immediately thought of Moshe Rabbeinu, who showed gratitude to inanimate objects such as the water that saved him as a baby and would not hit it to bring the plague in Egypt. So when you show appreciation to your appliances you are walking in the footsteps of our greatest leader ever. I am actually being serious. That's not materialism.

And when I wrote about avoiding materialism, I did not mean to sound holier than thou. I simply wrote what appears to me to be true, but I do not always live up the ideal. But materialism just doesn't happen to be my thing. Everyone has their own weaknesses, and I certainly have mine.

And Cassandra, what's with the Clarissaesque? Besides for being left-handed, how are we the same? I have never voted Democrat in my life. You are smarter than both of us, she is funnier than both of us, and I merely bask in the reflected glow.

Clarissa

Wed, May 14 2008, 7:46 pm

miriamf wrote:

What I would give to have a certain poster see me compared to Moshe Rabbeinu...

miriamf wrote:

And when I wrote about avoiding materialism, I did not mean to sound holier than thou. I simply wrote what appears to me to be true, but I do not always live up the ideal. But materialism just doesn't happen to be my thing. Everyone has their own weaknesses, and I certainly have mine.

I'm definitely on the same page with you there.

miriamf wrote:

And Cassandra, what's with the Clarissaesque? Besides for being left-handed, how are we the same? I have never voted Democrat in my life. You are smarter than both of us, she is funnier than both of us, and I merely bask in the reflected glow.

Now, now, I think you can say that we have a bit more in common than left-handedness. Even though I can't blame you for not wanting to admit it in public!

grin

Thu, May 15 2008, 12:55 am

I feel privileged to be on the same board with people who can afford to buy expensive products but contemplate the validity of it b/c of people like me who buy almost exclusively 2nd-hand.

yes, there's definitely value to deliberate any purchase and not buy just b/c your neighbor does. But if you're always denying yourself, that's not good for your yiddishkeit either. The rich that don't indulge can also forget the needs of those less well-off than them or can underestimate their needs.

and if you don't buy that $150 purse, who's going to eventually give it away so I can have it later, 2nd-hand? I appreicate good quality too!

HooRYou

Thu, May 15 2008, 2:34 am

I ahven't read the whole thread, but I keep thinking one thought when I think about this thread. There is also an issue of conspicuous consumption. Even if you gives piles of tzadoka and can still easily afford a luxury item I am not sure it is appropriate if you live in an area where the great majority of the people are barely making it or not making it at all. Besides really standing out you could also be be inspiring jealousy, dissatisfaction and in general becoming the Jones that no one can keep up with. Most neighborhoods are mixed finanacially, but there are still things that stand out so far that they are way too noticable inmy opionion.

louche

Thu, May 15 2008, 8:24 am

I have tremendous respect and admiration for a few people I've known who lived moderately and didn't advertise the fact that they were quite wealthy.

These families weren't misers and didn't dress in rags, but they stuck to "shvil hazahav"--the golden mean--in all things. IOW, a modest-size house in a middle middle-class neighborhood (not the so-called "upper middle class" which is a euphemism for "rich, but not obscenely so"); kids go to public university even though they could afford Ivy League; car well maintained but 10 or more years old; kids have P/T or summer jobs if they want to buy their own luxuries; clothes are of good quality but not prestigious brand names, and so on. In short, they did nothing to call attention to themselves and nothing that would make a person of lesser means feel uncomfortable in their company or in their home.

I was astonished some time later to read in the paper that Mr. & Mrs. Richbutdontflauntit were honored by a major charitable org. for umpteen years of generous support, and that the Whowouldhaveguessedit Family endowed an entire wing(!) to a certain hospital. That's how I finally found out they were wealthy. Their lifestyles gave no hint of it.

These are people to emulate, not the ones who pursue the biggest, best, flashiest and fanciest.