Do you FEEL that you've Changed in Frumkeit?

grin

Mon, Jun 02 2008, 3:15 pm

amother wrote:

I'm a BT. I grew doing absolutely nothing. I became frum in college. I was exposed to hillel and a whole frum community. I saw the love in frum homes and wanted that for myself. I found comfort in yiddeshkeit and didn't mind all the changes in my life (all the halachos to keep). The usual story: I went to israel, came back to NY to start work, met my husband, got married, had kids...all of a sudden the "spark" is gone. I love my husband and my kids but the magical part of Judaism has faded. I feel more restricted than I used to. I daydream back to my college days and all my adventures, adventures that aren't appropriate in the frum world. It makes me feel stuck in my life. I have the outward appearance of a religious jew, sheitel and all, but most days my heart simply isn't in it. Had I not gotten married when I did, I probably would have reverted back to my old life. Nobody knows any of this, not even my husband. He would be so disappointed to hear it.

this has been discussed in other threads and I would like to make 2 points:
1 - there's no issur in "adventure" - try to make time for youself to take fun mini-vacations w/o the kids or even just taking in a museum, for example, if that happens to interest you.
2 - feeling stuck may also mean having reached a certain comfort level in your frumkeit. Maybe it's time to reach for new hidur or some such?

cassandra

Mon, Jun 02 2008, 3:36 pm

amother wrote:

I think it's great that you felt so into it at one point, but the truth is, the spark has nothing to do with it. You do what you do because it's the right thing to do, not because it feels good. That is an added benefit for some, but it isn't a prerequisite or a guaranteed result.

If you don't feel like you are doing the right thing you may be better served trying to better understand why it is the right thing rather than looking for that elusive magic. Think of your questions and search for good answers. Don't be afraid that they don't exist and don't be afraid to ask.

gryp

Mon, Jun 02 2008, 3:40 pm

Quote:

but the truth is, the spark has nothing to do with it. You do what you do because it's the right thing to do, not because it feels good

Cassandra

Quote:

If you don't feel like you are doing the right thing you may be better served trying to better understand why it is the right thing rather than looking for that elusive magic

Right. And if you choose one little topic or mitzvah to learn about and concentrate on, sometimes the chayus can come back and make you excited about what you are doing.

ora_43

Mon, Jun 02 2008, 5:41 pm

amother wrote:

IMO losing the spark isn't a step back, it's a natural part of the process. The spark is Hashem giving you a free taste, then you have to start working for it. Kind of like falling in love, you have the surge of initial attraction but at some point you have to work to maintain the relationship, or it won't work out.

The things that initially attracted you are still there-the love, the comfort, etc. In my experience now it's a matter of rebuilding the spark, this time from inside yourself instead of a feeling you get from an external experience. Each person has their own way of getting the "spark" again, some with praying or meditation, some with shiurim, others by enjoying community life, etc.

Personally I find that telling my husband about my spiritual problems helps, maybe if you explain to your dh that it's something that's upsetting to you and you need his support he'll be able to help you out with ideas or just practical support like freeing up some time and money for you to take a class or just do a fun creative activity for yourself.

ChossidMom

Mon, Jun 02 2008, 10:57 pm

You know what gave me a profound spiritual experience once? I was in Banff in the Canadian Rockies and I decided to take my siddur out and daven by the side of a river. I was just sitting there and taking it all in. The magnificence of nature just blew me away and THAT was a spark for me. BTW I was still single when this happened (I had time to daven LOL). The last time I had the chance to get this kind of spiritual high was in the Swiss Alps about 5 years ago. B"H I don't seem to need it that much now but it wouldn't hurt to go someplace nice Wink

shalhevet

Tue, Jun 03 2008, 3:38 am

ChossidMom wrote:

CM, I had that experience last year when I was at a conference at a hotel in Haifa. I went out during the lunch break onto the tayelet (promenade) there overlooking the sea, from high up. It was in the middle of winter and there were very few people there, and I had such a feeling of rommemus Hashem looking at the sea and harbour. I took out a tehillim and said Barchi Nafshi, that has a pasuk about the sea and harbour. So there's an EY suggestion.

To the other posters who vented about losing the 'spark'. First, there is an inyan that when someone is just becoming a BT or getting stronger, Hashem stretches out to him, so to speak, and there is tremendous siyata dishmaya because otherwise it wouldn't be possible. After a while, that goes, and a person has to struggle with a 'normal' yetzer horo.

Also, for anyone single - FFB or BT - it is a different world. It all seems so easy as we get up with energy in the morning with the whole day ahead for shiurim, Tehillim, davenning etc as well as a job or whatever. Once we are married, especially mothers, the REAL work begins. The outside world (and some people here, too) like to paint going to a shiur or saying Tehillim as ruchniyus, so it is hard to adjust that changing diapers and cleaning toilets is our ruchniyus. All this is pure chessed we are doing for our families.

Having said that, I would recommend that those who are feeling uninspired find a weekly, or even monthly, shiur to 'recharge their spiritual batteries.' I would particularly recommend Rav Ezriel Tauber's shiurim/ tapes.

HooRYou

Tue, Jun 03 2008, 3:47 am

I agree with Shelhevet. I also think that for people who are longing for freedom it probably doesn't come from the restictions of frumkeit, but rather the limitations palced on you by being a mother and/or wife. Amother's example of college is a good one. In college you usually have the freedom of being away from family and on your own but usually not the repsonibilities like making a living and paying a mortgage, etc. Definitely try and recharge you Yiddishkeit, but we all must also find the ways and means to do things that we enjoy just for ourselves. Find yoru outlet (art, exercise whatever) and make it a priority.

BTW, when are we organizing the Israel Imamother tehillim trip to Haifa? Sounds beautiful!

cdawnr

Tue, Jun 03 2008, 1:26 pm

amother wrote:

Wow I wish I could quote from most of the responses to this post, as they were all great...but that would take too much time.

First I want to say to the amother poster....I almost wrote a post like this when I first read this topic, but a kid pulled me away for something. I wasn't frum, I was frum, I am "less frum" now. You are not alone with this feeling, and sometimes it feels like everyone else still has that chizuk within that got them frum...I also feel nervous letting my dh know, but I have expressed it once in a while and he didn't shun me, as I thought he might, he seemed genuinely concerned about my welfare. (He is a ger and the strength of his convictions is hugely greater than mine. It is also a personality thing). I wn't go back, I don't want to go back, to where I was (which wasn't a bad place, not partying or anything) because I believe that this is what I am suppossed to be doing even as a chain in a line of history. And what I pray for (when I get to daven) is that my children will have strong bitachon and emunah, the type their mommy will always have to struggle for.

As for the person who recommended the R' tauber stuff. I keep one of his books on my end table and on those days when I have had a particularly hard time with emunah (usually the days I have had a particularly hard time with everything) I read a chapter.

freidasima

Tue, Jun 03 2008, 2:01 pm

I have a question that has to do with practice, not feelings of spirituality.

Why do so many posters think that you are "better than you were" or "more frum than you were" in terms of religious practice if you take on chumros?

Why do you see it as something negative if someone writes that they are just as frum as they used to be 20 or 30 years ago? Particular if we are talking about people who were always frum?

I keep the same shabbos I did when I was 20, the same kashrus, the same TH, daven the same number of times, keep the exact same tznius, etc. I'm the same...why is that bad?

ChossidMom

Tue, Jun 03 2008, 2:36 pm

What is being described here reminds me a bit of lehavdil lehavdil, when I was in OA (Overeaters Anonymous). We had what was called "the honeymoon" period when we were abstaining from compulsive eating and we would be on this "high". After a while though, it became a little too routine and I, at least, would ask "Is that all there is?". The honeymoon ends and then real life kicks in (and you can't go back). It's a lot harder to be inspired and motivated at that point. I think that is the point where the above posters say we have to put in some more footwork and make the "spark" happen again.
I hope this makes sense to someone...

Clarissa

Tue, Jun 03 2008, 2:41 pm

It makes total sense to me, although it doesn't apply to me, because I'm in a different situation than a lot of the people here, in terms of my observance and how I came to it and deal with it.

As far as the honeymoon period, I think that people who have a tendency to excitedly immerse themselves in something new are sometimes the type of people who might be more likely to come down off the high naturally. Not trying to insult anyone here. I had a friend who came over for coffee today. I hate change, she loves change. She is open to new things, I'd be the one to wear the same shoes and live in the same apartment forever. She is also a person who has a tendency to throw herself, heart and soul, into new things and does sometimes find herself restless. Not speaking of anyone here, and I have great admiration for her and anybody who is spiritually and emotionally open.

Tehilla

Tue, Jun 03 2008, 2:45 pm

freidasima wrote:

Why do so many posters think that you are "better than you were" or "more frum than you were" in terms of religious practice if you take on chumros?

is that what was implied by others or your personal spin? because I posted that I'm better than I was, because of increased knowledge and observance. some of these things are chumros while others are refining and enhancing current basic practices.

freidasima wrote:

Why do you see it as something negative if someone writes that they are just as frum as they used to be 20 or 30 years ago? Particular if we are talking about people who were always frum?

it should be that a person is always growing and working on themselves. there is always work to be done on things like ahavas yisroel, shemiras haloshon, learning more halacha (and if you do it) and Chassidus. a person shouldn't be complacent with their achievements, but (quoting the Lubavitcher Rebbe) go chayil m'chayil, strength to strength. this doesn't mean that you stress yourself out and do too much, but that you constantly work at a good pace for yourself on improving middos and practices. things including periodic reviews of the dinim of Shabbos, kashrus, TH, etc etc. and I personally can ALWAYS work on being a better yid and loving others.

freidasima

Tue, Jun 03 2008, 3:17 pm

Maybe I'm just in a different place. I know the halachos of all these things. I do them daily and don't need reminders. It's like once you know how to type and you do it, you really don't need a refresher course.

I am definitely comfortable in my yiddishkeit and think that's the way it should be. Like breathing. An integral part of me without which I can't live but I don't think with each breath that I am breathing. Look, I was taught this way. Every day in davening you say "vetargilanu bemitzvosecha" which literally means make the mitzvos routine. My father a"h taught me that's the way they should be. Like a habit. Why? Because if you are doing it out of intellectual agreement or rational understanding you will one day go through a crisis and say "what? this is what Hashem did to me after all that davening and all those mitzvos?" and you can stop doing them. Or you will make a decision one day that what you are doing isn't rational, the way you talk on this thread of "growing" one can also "diminish"...and when you daven that your shmiras mitzvos should be "vetargilenu", it's so much a part of you, a "habit" (maybe that word has a negative connotation to some of you, in Hebrew it isn't negative to say "hergel"), you will still do it, even if one day you start thinking differently, even if you go through a nisayon, because it is just so much a part of you that you will keep doing it.

That's how I was taught, that's how I believe. I'm comfortable with it. Don't feel any need to "grow" or "work on myself" because I am happy with the way I am, with my level of keeping mitzvos, I may have to watch myself more one day than another not to speak rechilus, but that isn't being more frum or less frum, it's just working on myself when I hear in passing a story, not to pass it on, so that I can remain on the level where I am....I don't feel any need to enhance my practice of yiddishkeit because I am happy with the way it is. It's like my mother did, my grandmother did and her mother did too. Tradition. A good tradition. What's wrong with that? Aren'e we supposed to emulate the world of our grandmothers and their ancestors (if they were frum?!)

shalhevet

Tue, Jun 03 2008, 3:27 pm

freidasima wrote:

מצוות אנשים מלומדה

montrealmommy

Tue, Jun 03 2008, 4:06 pm

IMHO,

Growth is not about moving more to the right, taking on more chumrahs or being more like the frumest person you know. It's about becoming the yid you are supposed to be (fulfiling your neshomo's purpose) and re-evaluating our own positions to become the person you want to be. A small growth for one person may be a magnanamus leap for another. It is 100% personal and subjective. The goal of growth for today is that tomorrow I can say I have learned something/changed, even if minutely, and even if I'm the only one who knows.

shalhevet

Tue, Jun 03 2008, 4:08 pm

I was asked to explain my post. The passuk in Yeshaya says:

ישעיהו פרק כט

* פסוק יג: וַיֹּאמֶר אֲדֹנָי, יַעַן כִּי נִגַּשׁ הָעָם הַזֶּה, בְּפִיו וּבִשְׂפָתָיו כִּבְּדוּנִי, וְלִבּוֹ רִחַק מִמֶּנִּי--וַתְּהִי יִרְאָתָם אֹתִי, מִצְוַת אֲנָשִׁים מְלֻמָּדָה.

This is the Artscroll translation:

Quote:

The L-rd said: Inasmuch as this people has drawn close, with its mouth and with its lips it has honored Me, yet it has distancd its heart from Me - their fear of Me is like rote learning of human commands...

It is a non-complimentary description by the novi of doing mitzvos, just because that's what you've done always/ for a long time.

ChossidMom

Tue, Jun 03 2008, 4:10 pm

montrealmommy wrote:

Wow. Well said! I wish I had said that Wink