I have nothing with yom hashoa

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 8:19 am

Ridethewaves wrote:

The date of yom hashoa ugvura memorializes the Warsaw ghetto uprising where after a few days/weeks of fighting thousands of Jews died. The narrative takes away from the galus of the holocaust. It paints survivors as strong vs weak. Although we have many stories in Jewish history of courageous battles, we remember them as a nes and connection with HaShem.
I remember going through Poland and concentration camps years ago. The Warsaw uprising memorials stripped religion and HaShem from the equation and were seriously misguided. To make a holiday of that day seems offensive to me.

And what's become invisible is the spiritual heroism that was displayed during the Holocaust.
Though as one survivor said (paraphrasing), forget about transcendence. It was all one could do to just keep living and not hurt someone else in the process.

5mom

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 8:21 am

pinkpeonies wrote:

Did you just compare chanuka, a yom tov established by the anshei knesses hagedola, and yom ha’atzmaut/shoah/yerushalayim… days created by a secular government???

This isn't the place for this conversation, but you don't need anyone to tell you to say Hallel when a miracle happens. That's already halacha. The problem is with those who don't thank Hashem for saving 600,000 Jews from seven invading armies.

The establishment of Channukah, saying Hallel for Jewish independence under an illegitimate government (kohanim can't be kings) shows the value that Chazal placed on Jewish sovereignty, even when the government itself isn't ideal.

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 8:23 am

5mom wrote:

Sfira was originally a happy time, the chol hamoed between Pesach and Shavuos. Over the years, we've unfortunately had to commemorate the deaths of Rabbi Akiva's talmididm (fighting in the Bar Kochba rebellion) and then later, the Crusader massacres.

In recent generations, אשרינו שזכינו, the tide has turned and we now have national days of celebration and geula during this time period. It's up to us to recognize the miracles and mark sefira as it was intended to be.

Changes like this can't be made casually because "the tide has turned" and "times have changed."

Let's unpack why sefira switched to the sad time. It was because the students of Rabbi Akiva didn't give each other proper kavod. The learned the Torah but it didn't transform them.

So it would seem to me - I haven't head this anywhere, just conjecture - that anything that would override the aveilus would have to be some great sea change in how we accord each other kavod. Where does the gift - and I do believe it's a gift - of access to EY have to do with that?

If we override sefira, the original reason for the proscriptions will be forgetten and neglected.

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 8:24 am

8x wrote:

To me it's like mother's day, I don't need a special day to remember my mother. Same with Yerushalayim and the Holocaust. It's part of my day to day identity.

This is true, and yet we DO have a day to celebrate the Torah.
Just playing devil's advocate.

etky

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 8:27 am

pinkpeonies wrote:

Did you just compare chanuka, a yom tov established by the anshei knesses hagedola, and yom ha’atzmaut/shoah/yerushalayim… days created by a secular government???

Worth thinking about the point that the religious leaders of the time - the Pharisees - established Chanukah as a celebration of the rebirth of Jewish political autonomy despite the fact that the Hamoneans had, for the most part, long degenerated into a religiously corrupt, Hellenistic, power hungry dynasty up to their necks in bloody, internecine disputes.

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 8:28 am

Reality wrote:

There are halachic parameters regarding Yom Yerushalayim that have nothing to do with being a day of remembrance and the fact that as a religious Jew you remember Yerushalayim every day. Every Jew should consider Yom Yerushalayim a special day and we all should be saying Hallel. It is purely political that there are factions of religious Jews who don't say Hallel on Yom Yerushalayim.

Political??????
That's not how things work in Yiddishkeit.
I know very, very RW rabbis who will never lose an opportunity to express their appreciation for the gift of access to EY. I'll name one. Rabbi Yisroel Reisman shlita of Torah Vodaath, who gives a weekly Navi shiur. And he also often expresses puzzlement at how anyone who will plan a big ticket international trip would go anywhere but EY.

Forgive me, but it sounds like your impugning the integrity of every person of stature how does not say Hallel on Yom Yerushalayim and does not tell their congregants, talmidim, et all to do the same.

Reality

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 8:28 am

5mom wrote:

Agreed. From a halachic perspective, it seems the issue with Yom Haatzmaut is the day that was chosen to say Hallel not the actual saying of Hallel.

Reality

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 8:30 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I am not impugning anyone. Try asking one of those Rabbis privately. They will tell you halachically, we should be saying Hallel, but we don't. They don't have a halachic answer.

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 8:32 am

Reality wrote:

I am sorry that all halacha is for you are "too many shoulds".

I'm bowing out of this discussion because I'm not wasting my day debating something obviously very close to your heart.
Have a great day.

LovesHashem

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 8:44 am

Reality wrote:

Seems like you've researched this. Id love to hear more.

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 8:47 am

5mom wrote:

I

And I learned that it was only a year later that the chachamim established it as a holiday. Because the next year, they could sense the koach of that time was present, so it was more than just an historical event.

I would need to see this from a broad spectrum of leadership. And I'm not naive enough to say that politics is never an issue but I refuse to accept that my not being taught to say Hallel was because of politics on behalf of the leadership in my community and school, and my parents' hashkafos.

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 8:49 am

etky wrote:

Chanukah is NOT about political autonomy.
Here's a theme to think about: Hashem giving us tzeidah laderech for the long night ahead. Because the leadership early on in the Bayis Sheini period knew that this BHMK was not going to be the lasting one, and from day one they gave us tools to navigate the future when Jews would be scattered through the diaspora. Such as canonizing tefilla and many takanos.

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 8:50 am

Reality wrote:

Agreed. From a halachic perspective, it seems the issue with Yom Haatzmaut is the day that was chosen to say Hallel not the actual saying of Hallel.

No. It's not a matter of not saying Hallel during sefira. I'll be doing it this Shabbos beH. Though I can only hope it will be in a rebuilt Yerushalayim; Moshiach can come any day beH.

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 8:51 am

8x wrote:

We do not have arbah regalim min hatorah.

I agree that I can't consider it a yom tov. I am saying that there's the concept of taking some special time to really appreciate something, and as we say in Hallel, isru chag ba'avosim - bind the message of the chag to ourselves with cords of faith and dedication.

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 8:52 am

Reality wrote:

I am not impugning anyone. Try asking one of those Rabbis privately. They will tell you halachically, we should be saying Hallel, but we don't. They don't have a halachic answer.

Every. Single. One.

Wow.

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 8:54 am

8x wrote:

I'm bowing out of this discussion because I'm not wasting my day debating something obviously very close to your heart.
Have a great day.

FTR, my reading of the should discussion is that it was a bit patronizing, to tell us what we SHOULD be doing and that there's something missing in our chinuch if we don't.