I have nothing with yom hashoa

etky

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 8:59 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Maybe frum communities. But in the non-observant world, it has definitely taken root. Go to every US Federation site and Holocaust center to see local programming.
For so many non-observant Jews, the Holocaust is as far as they go back re Jewish history. It's often the launching point for further exploration.

As I said in my other post " communities for whom rejection of Israeli statehood is a religious identity marker." - I.e frum communities.

Chayalle

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 9:06 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Chanukah is NOT about political autonomy.
Here's a theme to think about: Hashem giving us tzeidah laderech for the long night ahead. Because the leadership early on in the Bayis Sheini period knew that this BHMK was not going to be the lasting one, and from day one they gave us tools to navigate the future when Jews would be scattered through the diaspora. Such as canonizing tefilla and many takanos.

I just had to comment that I found this post to be so uplifting. Thank you for this (and your other posts in this thread.)

rachelli66

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 9:33 am

Whether you feel or not, I think the continuation for Yom Hashoah is so important as the older Generation is passing and we Need to Remember and teach our children about the Shoah. In 30 years that generation will be gone and we ourselves will be nearing 55-85 years and we Need our grandchildren to know and carry it along to their families.

keym

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 9:47 am

It seems like there are actually 2 different conversations going on.

1) the importance of remembering the Holocaust and telling the next generation the stories

2) actually doing it on Yom Hashoah

I think that if people individually or community feel uncomfortable with Yom Hashoah (because of the original emphasis on the Warsaw ghetto heroes, because it's in Nissan) but make sure to do it other times, then it's ok.

I know my kids Schools and camps do programs on Asara Bteves (the day set aside for Kaddish) and Tisha Bav (the day that Chazal instituted for all Jewish tragedies).

Internationally, Holocaust Remembrance Day is in December - the day Auschwitz was liberated.

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 10:51 am

Reality wrote:

Ask about both.

And I also want to say I am sorry if my posts read condescendingly. I did not mean to be condescending at all.

Thanks to both paragraphs. I wasn't terribly offended but I think that some posters might have been and I don't think they were being hypersensitive. (That doesn't mean that anyone was trying to be offensive or condescening; it's the limitations of the medium.)

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 10:53 am

rachelli66 wrote:

The question is, how and when we remember. I know of a Holocaust center that's training second generation docents, I.e. children of survivors, to act as docents and speakers, because the first generation is losing the ability to do so.

The Torah tells us that we have to remember history: Zechor yemos olam. There are many endeavors and a lot going on in Holocaust education.

etky

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 1:02 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Well, Rambam, for one kind of thinks that it is:
הלכות חנוכה פרק ג
הלכה א

בבית שני כשמלכו יון גזרו גזרות על ישראל ובטלו דתם ולא הניחו אותם לעסוק בתורה ובמצות, ופשטו ידם בממונם ובבנותיהם, ונכנסו להיכל ופרצו בו פרצות וטמאו הטהרות, וצר להם לישראל מאד מפניהם ולחצום לחץ גדול עד שריחם עליהם אלהי אבותינו והושיעם מידם והצילם, וגברו בני חשמונאי הכהנים הגדולים והרגום והושיעו ישראל מידם והעמידו מלך מן הכהנים וחזרה מלכות לישראל יתר על מאתים שנה עד החורבן השני.

Chickensoupprof

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 1:25 pm

I'm going to straighten something out. I get that the state of Israel needs a Jewish state a holocaust rememberance day. The Shoah was the defining rise of the State of Israel. I find it most troublesome when non-Jews try very hard to 'remember' on other war/holocaut remembrance days. Also at the shoah, while in the Netherlands by far the most Jews were deported. Why are you so dejected on May 4 when your family or whatever did nothing? Why is monument to monument (especially in NL) set up? For what? Put that into the Jewish future, give that money to the Jewish schools, to chinuch and not for another name monument. That is my feeling in the Netherlands, so the real memorial event I prefer to do on Tisha B'Av than on Yom Hashoa.

For Israel related holidays, I didn't even know they existed. I am not patriotic, nationalistic in any case and I was not raised in a Zionist way. So I was 21 or so when I knew there was something like yom yerushalyim.

PinkFridge

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 6:32 pm

etky wrote:

Interesting. I did some googling (Rambam on Chashmonaim) and this expands on it: https://www.ou.org/holidays/va.....ukah/ (From Rabbi Mosheh Twersky, Hy"d)
Is Rambam directly linking our celebration of Chanukah now to the restoration of the malchus to the Chashmonaim? This is not the same as celebrating the military victory. Of course we celebrate the military victory but afaik only in the context of its miraculousness.

MommyPhD

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 11:33 pm

Chickensoupprof wrote:

I have a confession to make and I feel always a bit weird and ashamed about it. I don't have a feeling when it comes to yom hashoa (also not on yom hatsmaot and yom yerushalayim for that matter). I feel so numb.
Israel or shoa remembrance was not a chinuch I had. I knew my grandma was hidden in the war and that her parents got killed and for me that was because they were Jewish. In the Netherlands, u have a remembrance day on the 4th of May and u are silent for 2 minutes to be honest for the latest years I don't do these 2 minutes of silence. Still, I feel ashamed to even say this because I feel as a Jew I have to feel something on those days or to be occupied with this, and tbh I don't have it.
I feel those days are for the non-Jews... I've seen the war trauma first hand, my grandma who was acting weird around DH when she was still mentally well. On thisa b'av I'm more concious about more things the restrictions during the 3 weeks and then the 9 days are helping but yom hashoa no...

It's weird that you feel the need to brag about how you feel nothing for Yom Ha-Shoa. Like.. what kind of flex do you think this is?

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Apr 19 2023, 11:45 pm

MommyPhD wrote:

It's weird that you feel the need to brag about how you feel nothing for Yom Ha-Shoa. Like.. what kind of flex do you think this is?

This. I was going to ask, op, why did you feel the need to inform us of this?

etky

Thu, Apr 20 2023, 12:02 am

PinkFridge wrote:

I didn't reference the military victory. I mentioned that the rabbis of the Talmud, who established Chanukah as a fixed observance, felt that the renewal of political sovereignty under the Hasmoneans was a reason for celebration despite this regimes' subsequent slide into corruption and Hellenization.

etky

Thu, Apr 20 2023, 12:11 am

MommyPhD wrote:

It's weird that you feel the need to brag about how you feel nothing for Yom Ha-Shoa. Like.. what kind of flex do you think this is?

I didn't read this OP as bragging and I think it's a legitimate discussion to have.
Holocaust remembrance is an important topic and it is conducted along many channels, aside from Yom Hashoah observance.
In Israel, in particular, I feel that Yom Hashoah is very important although not without its own issues like the alienation that certain groups (Mizrachim, charedim, Arabs - all for different reasons) feel from this day.

Chickensoupprof

Thu, Apr 20 2023, 3:24 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

This. I was going to ask, op, why did you feel the need to inform us of this?

Because I feel ashamed I'm not sharing things on instagram or post things and I just feel weird about it that it's not my thing... What do people think I am? A monster? Narcist? Psychopath... Banging head

Rappel

Thu, Apr 20 2023, 3:33 am

Chickensoupprof wrote:

You're perfectly right.

Tisha BAv is the day to mark these tragedies.

5mom

Thu, Apr 20 2023, 3:44 am

Chickensoupprof wrote:

Not at all. But you might want to read up on Holland during the war. The myth of the heroic Dutch resistance doesn't match up with the reality that Holland has the highest percentage in western Europe of Jews murdered in WW2. The Dutch gave up their Jews more willingly than they gave up their bicycles.

Chickensoupprof

Thu, Apr 20 2023, 3:45 am

5mom wrote:

I just WROTE that yesterday 🙄