Because of some men, I can’t live my life

Ima_Shelli

Tue, May 30 2023, 9:25 pm

amother OP wrote:

Sorry, not sheltered at all. I spent my high school years hanging out with guys. I’m far from sheltered.

My view of men is that they are as animalistic as Hashem made them. They are designed to want to look at women and get pleasure from it. It’s a constant struggle for most men.

And yes, there are almost naked women on insta. Some men will look at them. But other men, who don’t want to stoop that low, may go another route that seems less offensive- watching tznius ladies and getting pleasure. It’s real and true and it happens. I know this for a fact.

So why did you start this thread?

amother

Tue, May 30 2023, 9:27 pm

[quote="amother Poinsettia"]I don't really care if men dream about me at night. It's not my problem. All (straight) men, Jews and non-Jews alike, will have thoughts about the women they see. As you said, it doesn't make them creepy, it makes them human. It's their nisayon to deal with as they choose.

I'm not out here stripping on a pole in Times Square. I'm just living my life as a normally dressed woman, and yeah that might include riding a bicycle, playing a musical instrument, or talking in public. If a man is trying to avoid any thoughts of women whatsoever, it's on him to avoid them.[/quote]

This was kind of my point. I mean, yes I care. Ew I don’t want to be in another man’s dreams. But it’s not my problem if they decide to take my tznius video and turn it into a fantasy…

And again, the rav said it’s not so black and white. Because I’m knowingly and willingly putting my video on a platform that is easily accessible to boys and men, knowing the harm I can cause, and doing it anyway. It can be considered a stumbling block.

I’m waiting to hear an answer tbat I’m comfortable with.

amother

Tue, May 30 2023, 9:29 pm

Ima_Shelli wrote:

So why did you start this thread?

Because I was feeling very resentful that I can’t pursue this avenue because of the reality of men snooping. I wanted chizzuk and to hear words that will make me feel better about it.

And B”H I got that. So thank you to all who commented. I feel empowered that if I’m told No that I have other options, and also bitachon that I will never lose from doing the right thing.

Ima_Shelli

Tue, May 30 2023, 9:36 pm

amother OP wrote:

BH!

amother

Eggshell

Tue, May 30 2023, 9:37 pm

[quote="Ima_Shelli"]So post unclear, non vibrant pictures of women who WANT to be pictured. (People like Riva excepted of course.)

The point is that this is not a clear-cut issue. Plenty of chashuve women in the not-so-distant past have spoken in public in front of men (Gasp!). Plenty of chashuve women have been fine with being pictured in magazines and elsewhere.

I wonder if Rebbetzin Yingreis would have been out in cherem today. She got up at MSG I’m front of men and women! And had the haskama of rabbanim becuase people were normal back then. It wasn’t all about relations - we’ve done this to ourselves

amother

Banana

Tue, May 30 2023, 9:44 pm

[quote="amother Eggshell"]

Ima_Shelli wrote:

So post unclear, non vibrant pictures of women who WANT to be pictured. (People like Riva excepted of course.)

The point is that this is not a clear-cut issue. Plenty of chashuve women in the not-so-distant past have spoken in public in front of men (Gasp!). Plenty of chashuve women have been fine with being pictured in magazines and elsewhere.

I wonder if Rebbetzin Yingreis would have been out in cherem today. She got up at MSG I’m front of men and women! And had the haskama of rabbanim becuase people were normal back then. It wasn’t all about relations - we’ve done this to ourselves

Contrary to a recent misinformed essay in one of the frum magazines, Sarah Schnirer did too....and that was back in the shtetl days.

amother

Tue, May 30 2023, 9:51 pm

[quote="amother Eggshell"]

Ima_Shelli wrote:

Watching a woman speak in front of a crowd vs watching a woman speak to you on your little screen that you can zoom into and replay is VERY different.

I would actually feel comfortable speaking to a mixed crowd if needed. I am not comfortable with men watching me on their phones. It’s different.

amother

Eggshell

Tue, May 30 2023, 9:53 pm

amother OP wrote:

And yet there are almost never women speaking to mixed crowds in any frum arena - it’s not allowed anymore. Not tznius

amother

Tue, May 30 2023, 9:53 pm

I still want to use Instagram to post my videos, but I’m aware of the potential damage it can cause. So I’m gonna follow daas Torah for direction.

I’m clarifying because on the one hand I support the viewpoint that men struggle, but on the other hand I feel that women should also have a platform to express themselves in a kosher way.

Trying to find the balance as it pertains to me personally.

amother

NeonGreen

Tue, May 30 2023, 9:58 pm

amother OP wrote:

I’m really upset right now.
I have a service based business and using Instagram helps me reach a lot of clients. I’m still in the starter phase of my business, and now I can’t use Instagram to promote my service. Why you want to know?

Because I need to film myself talking and DH was very uncomfortable with it, so we agreed to ask his rebbe. His rebbe listened to me and heard me out and said he’ll ask a shaila for us because it’s really not simple. Even if I’m totally tznius and say it’s an all women’s platform, men will watch me and it’s not so simple to just say it’s their problem….

He got back to us and said that his rav doesn’t want to pasken because it’s really not a simple question…and so he’ll ask someone else.

So now I’m waiting again but I just feel so resentful. Why do I have to stifle myself and my business just because there are men out there who are doing the wrong thing?

I want chizzuk and words that will comfort me. Please don’t bash rabbanim. DH’s rebbe is not extreme at all, he’s just super aware of what goes on for guys and he’s trying to be realistic.

This situation is also making me have such a hard time understanding how then, it’s possible, that there are so many good and tznius ladies on Instagram who are spreading Torah! Is it wrong?!?!

I need a good perspective
TIA

It’s not about the creepy men. It’s about you being tznius. If showing your face on social media is a transgression of tznius, is definitely a debatable grey area. I respect you for asking a daas torah you trust. Asking daas Torah helps keep you on the right track you set for yourself. That’s why it’s important to have a daas torah similar to your derech you want to go in life. Hug

amother

Banana

Tue, May 30 2023, 10:21 pm

amother Eggshell wrote:

And yet there are almost never women speaking to mixed crowds in any frum arena - it’s not allowed anymore. Not tznius

It's not "not allowed" its just become a cultural norm. Like some people will have mechitzas at a big family celebration while others do not. But, the only time a mechitza is halachically required is during davening/in a shul. If you grew up that way you may think it's "not allowed" but that's just the way things developed in many circles and now that's the expectation.

This isn't a new discussion for modern times either, I remember reading this debate in the Jewish Observer in the 1980s or possibly 90s with a back and forth about women speaking at high school graduations, giving divrei Torah, with men in the audience. The JO editor allowed for debate, with one pro and one con, and then letters supporting both viewpoints in follow up editions. They were secure enough in their hashkafa that debating both sides was valid and they didn't feel the need to say that it is not allowed (as they did for other issues). I still remember the author who wrote the "con" side and he took a lot of flak and admitted it in a follow up and was willing to accept there was another valid pov. (A Dr. Fryshman, who was a regular contributing writer.)
And btw, back then people recorded stuff, too, to re-watch. Not on a phone obviously but certainly on video recorders.

write on

Wed, May 31 2023, 4:16 am

OP, I'm very gratified to hear that this resonated with you--that was my hope in posting it! :-)

Thanks for the invite to hang out here, all you awesome Imamothers! It's wonderful to meet you and ya never know! 😍😘🥰

I posted this late last night and today I feel a need to clarify two things:
1. As another poster pointed out, this is more a matter of hashkafah than halacha so my original example of the p'sak I got about the kashrus of my pots is NOT an exact parallel in the content of the shailah but IS identical in the idea that when I ask my Rav for a p'sak I abide by what he says.

2. I am by no means a tznius expert, nor am I any kind of tzadeikes. I have my struggles in all areas of life, and in tznius there is an ever-evolving, deepening understanding and push-pull. There are things I wear and do that other people would probably frown upon and there are plenty of shailos I probably could be asking but haven't (for fear of getting a p'sak I don't want to hear? 🙄🤔). Just felt I needed to say that...

Onward and upward! Much love, Riva 💗💖💥

essie14

Wed, May 31 2023, 4:24 am

I only read pages 1-2 of the responses.
I had a thought. Why are women always posting on here asking of names of rabbis who "allow" birth control?
People definitely search for a Rabbi who they know will give them a yes.
If you wanted an unequivocal yes answer why didn't you ask Yaffa Palti's husband? (He's a Rabbi) or ask Raizy Fried who her Rabbi is and ask him? Or any other frum influencer's Rabbi?
Obviously there are rabbis who "allow" their constituents to show their faces on Instagram.

Chickensoupprof

Wed, May 31 2023, 6:15 am

[quote="amother Eggshell"]

Ima_Shelli wrote:

This is always what I'm wondering, Rebbetzin Jungreis is a perfect example her father even went to Rebbe Yoelish zatzal for a bracha for her daughter to be succeeded. Rebbe Yoelish the Satmar rebbe who really emphasized tznius for women. And then people will say 'yeah but this generation is toxic' well they said that already 40 years ago and 400 years ago 🤷‍♀️

I think it's really wrong to overly s-xualize men and women. You know I live together with one, (and before super secular) and I had boys in my class well they weren't busy with s-x at all.

amother

Wed, May 31 2023, 6:56 am

essie14 wrote:

I didn’t call a random rabbi hoping for a yes. Like I mentioned, I didn’t think there could be any problem if I was tznius, but DH felt otherwise. So we called his rebbe from Yeshiva for hashkafik perspective so that I can understand DH’s hesitance. And it came as a shock to me that it’s potentially not allowed…for me.

the world's best mom

Wed, May 31 2023, 8:45 am

I have a different question about your thread title. We've debated about the "Because of creepy men" but what about the end of your title, "I can't live my life"? Is life all about instagram? With no posting videos on instagram, there is no point to life?

I've never been on instagram but I think I have a rich, happy life. I don't understand the tragedy in refraining from posting a video on instagram.

amother

Banana

Wed, May 31 2023, 8:55 am

the world's best mom wrote:

Someone like Sarah Schnirer or Rebbetzin Jungreis or Yemima Mizrachi....yes, they could not have accomplished what they did without speaking publicly including in front of mixed audiences. And if the internet had been around back then, the first 2 no doubt would have utilized it.

amother

Mint

Wed, May 31 2023, 8:56 am

Op this is really about your "husband's hesitance"
he is uncomfortable with you putting yourself out there in the public sphere in this way
this is really between you and your husband
sounds like he agreed to ask his rov because you didn't understand or agree with your husband's hesitation
and sounds like you were surprised and upset at the rov's answer
focus on your relationship
this is personal
hugs and hatzlocha