Tefillos at the Rebbe's ohel

Thisisnotmyreal

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 1:17 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Even a living tzaddik? We solicit prayer all the time.
Frankly, there's something about actively soliciting prayer from a niftar that gives me pause: they're in the olam ha'emes and might know the fuller picture.

We can still ask for.sweetness and Hatov Hanireh Vehanigleh.

PinkFridge

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 1:20 pm

Thisisnotmyreal wrote:

Ok so here is where Chassidus comes in.

Chassidus tells us about Hashem and the truth about world we live in.

That there is Physical and Spiritual. Holy and mundane. Four worlds of consciousness and the ten general sfiros of each. Chassidus uses this information about the world to explain Ein Od Milvado that there's nothing but Hashem and how Hashem recreates the world constantly. That this world is really hard to explain as something real but that spiritual worlds aren't.

When you learn Chassidus you stop taking what is visible at face value. Just because I don't see something doesn't mean it's not true and just because I see something doesn't mean it is true.

When you learn Chassidus you can be painted the majestic picture of the scene takes place on high on Rosh Hashanah. The characters that we learn about and talk about in our machzor all coming before Hashem to plead their case and how all are waiting for the Shofar blast in our world to do so.

You can understand that the Neshamos of Tzaddikim are mostly spiritual and so their life does not end after death because nothing is taken away from them. They lose nothing. They are who they are and death isn't more powerful than these Tzaddikim. Yes. They aren't shaking a lulav and Esrog like we are. But they absolutely are able to continue the spiritual pursuits. They can be a meilitz yosher and they are Neshamos. The Neshamos that animate our body, but without the body.

I think it's disgusting that the only thing you can tell someone who doesn't learn Chassidus about what happens after death is how badly the person will burn in hell. Seriously if you want to know what's Christian? That is.

I'm very Litvish and... I don't know where to begin.

Hashem recreates the world constantly. My nusach Ashkenaz siddur also has the words "Hamechadesh b'tuvu b'chol yom tamid maase breishis." Really!

Re taking things at face value: Many mishnayos in Pirkei Avos about this.

Re the majestic picture Chassidus paints: Many gedolei mussar talk about the koach hadimyon. Mussar can bring one to added dimensions in tefillah as well. (As an aside, not completely relevant, I'm listening to Rabbi Menachem Penner on the sefer Da'at Tefillah on YU Torah.org. Amazing!)

Litvaks also use the term meilitz yosher.

Should I take umbrage at the last paragraph bolded? Is that all you think non-chassidus talk has to offer? Not just contemporary mussar; what about classical works of machshavah that predated the Besht and the Gra?

ETA "tamid." (and then to edit this line)

Last edited by PinkFridge on Fri, Jun 23 2023, 1:47 pm; edited 2 times in total

PinkFridge

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 1:22 pm

Thisisnotmyreal wrote:

We can still ask for.sweetness and Hatov Hanireh Vehanigleh.

Good point. And I have had the zechus of davening at kivrei tzadikim, and relatives, and talking to them in my own way (not just accessing the kedushah of the place).

Hatemywig

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 1:29 pm

zaq wrote:

Catholicism believes in intercessory prayer, iow praying to a saint to intercede on one's behalf. I fail to see a difference.

I repeat: if you address the tzaddik and ask him to plead on your behalf, you're davening to him. That's my position and I'm sticking to it.

Zaq, you are one of the posters I greatly admire, appreciate and respect on this board, however, in this case, you essentially accused Chassidim, Lubavitch Chassidim in particular of Serving Avoda Zara. That's a serious accusation!

In Chassidus we are taught almost together with mother's milk, that the connection between a Chossid and a Rebbe is through spiritual means and not only a mere relationship.

I suggest watching the video below of Rabbi Paltiel giving some insight on this topic:

https://insidechassidus.org/ho.....shem/

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 1:31 pm

Please see here for both chabad and mainstream sources for davening at a tzaddik's kever as well as addressing the deceased tzaddik himself:

https://www.chabad.org/library.....f.htm

https://www.soulwords.org/vide.....ohel/

https://asktherav.com/2774-539.....this/

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 1:36 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I'm very Litvish and... I don't know where to begin.

Hashem recreates the world constantly. My nusach Ashkenaz siddur also has the words "Hamechadesh b'tuvu b'chol yom maase breishis." Really!

Not to nitpick, just wondering if it's a typo or difference in nusach- do you have the word "tamid" after "bchol yom?"

scruffy

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 1:40 pm

Thisisnotmyreal wrote:

I'm not sure if you have an accurate picture about what non Chassidim learn. I'm not great at explaining things, but all of the things mentioned here are part of my hashkafos.

Except for talking about sefiros which is set aside but not because it's not true, just not treated as a subject for the average person.

Last edited by scruffy on Fri, Jun 23 2023, 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

scruffy

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 1:41 pm

8x wrote:

Not to nitpick, just wondering if it's a typo or difference in nusach- do you have the word "tamid" after "bchol yom?"

delete got confused

Last edited by scruffy on Fri, Jun 23 2023, 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 1:45 pm

scruffy wrote:

Yes, it's a difference in Nusach between Nusach Ashkenaz and Nusach Sefard/ Ari

(spoken as someone who has davened in both Ashkenaz and Sefard)

Thanks for the clarification! I never noticed the word Tamid missing when I peeked Into other siddurim.

Not that it means anything specifically but there is a part of Tanya that delves into this concept.

PinkFridge

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 1:46 pm

8x wrote:

Not to nitpick, just wondering if it's a typo or difference in nusach- do you have the word "tamid" after "bchol yom?"

Oops. Forgot tamid. Going back to edit. Thanks.

Thisisnotmyreal

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 1:48 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I'm very Litvish and... I don't know where to begin.

Hashem recreates the world constantly. My nusach Ashkenaz siddur also has the words "Hamechadesh b'tuvu b'chol yom maase breishis." Really!

Re taking things at face value: Many mishnayos in Pirkei Avos about this.

Re the majestic picture Chassidus paints: Many gedolei mussar talk about the koach hadimyon. Mussar can bring one to added dimensions in tefillah as well. (As an aside, not completely relevant, I'm listening to Rabbi Menachem Penner on the sefer Da'at Tefillah on YU Torah.org. Amazing!)

Litvaks also use the term meilitz yosher.

Should I take umbrage at the last paragraph bolded? Is that all you think non-chassidus talk has to offer? Not just contemporary mussar; what about classical works of machshavah that predated the Besht and the Gra?

Nothing really new, correct. Though it would be wrong to assume that all the Torah in the hundreds of seforim of Chabad are otherwise spelled out and readily available elsewhere.

You can be upset about my last paragraph which is mainly a response to last week's thread. People saying that Neshamos have no capacity to do anything while I maintain a very strong relationship with the Rebbe.

And being accused of a serious sin because of that.

Last edited by Thisisnotmyreal on Fri, Jun 23 2023, 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

scruffy

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 1:48 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Oops. Forgot tamid. Going back to edit. Thanks.

Oh guess it is in both...

I get confused sometimes having changed Nusach what the wording is

PinkFridge

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 1:51 pm

wrote:

Yes, it's a difference in Nusach between Nusach Ashkenaz and Nusach Sefard/ Ari

(spoken as someone who has davened in both Ashkenaz and Sefard)

Not sure what siddur you used.
This idea is in the first bracha, the bracha of Yotzer Ohr, twice. Both times include the word tamid.
Edited to delete the posters name as a few people seem to think this.

PinkFridge

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 1:53 pm

Thisisnotmyreal wrote:

OK. Here's what you said: "I think it's disgusting that the only thing you can tell someone who doesn't learn Chassidus about what happens after death is how badly the person will burn in hell. Seriously if you want to know what's Christian? That is."

I didn't realize you were thinking of other threads. Standing on its own, it was just really too bizarre.

Thisisnotmyreal

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 2:00 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Ok fair. Zaq is implying that Tzaddikim can't do anything.

mom24b

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 2:49 pm

8x wrote:

Which one of the links is not chabad ?

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 3:00 pm

mom24b wrote:

Which one of the links is not chabad ?

Please read them to see which sefarim are quoted.

mom24b

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 3:19 pm

Thisisnotmyreal wrote:

I don’t understand why you are upset that I said you are not allowed to believe that the dead have any kochos. There’s nothing to be upset about, it is a fact that once someone dies they can no longer learn Torah or do mitzvos that’s why we are sad. If they still have all their capabilities and you can still maintain a “relationship” with the dead then why are you sad when someone dies? Why is there a concept of shiva and halachos of mourning. According to your view of death the only thing that changes is your ability to see the person. So it’s essentially the same as someone who moved to a far away country that you can’t get to . If that’s your view of death then please explain the countless mishnayos telling us we can only do and accomplish in this world. Why the focus on accomplishing all we can in this world it one can still do the exact same in the next world? Torah explicitly tells us you can no longer do anything in the next world. You come ti the next world with what you accomplished in this world. Once you die you can no longer attain anything more in Torah or mitzvahs. Why do you think there’s a concept of Bitul Torah if you can just continue up there and nothing changes ? What does hazman katzar vehavoda merubah mean? Mishetarach Berev shabbos Yochel Bshabbos, Holam Haze domeh lapruzdor …. What do you think these Mishnayos mean if nothing changes and the dead continue on exactly as they are in this world? What your saying doesn’t make sense. Nobody believes you should have a relationship with the dead. What do you mean you maintain your relationship with the Rebbi?!? Please show me one source in the Torah that shows someone “maintaining a relationship” with someone not alive. The Torah teaches us that Avraham Avinu bah lvkos as Sarah he cried over her and mourned. If he could just continue his relationship with her since essentially nothing changed when she died other than he could no longer be in her proximity why did he mourn and cry? Where does it show that he maintained a relationship with her? Where does the Torah show anyone maintaining the same relationship with someone dead?? It doesn’t because it’s not possible and believing that it is and they do have ability’s in the next world is not allowed. Non chassidim also use the term meilitz yosher but we ask the nifter at the Levaya when we can still talk to the nifter once they are buried we do not and can not talk to the dead. What a meis can do or not do is not our business and we don’t know. But we are not allowed to believe they have the ability to do anything. Saying you can maintain a relationship with someone dead is in my opinion absurd. If that were the case I would still have a close relationship with my mother, but I don’t because she’s dead. What I do have are memories of our relationship that I can keep alive, but I can’t actively have a relationship with her. Implying that you can have a relationship with the Rebbi who is no longer living is extremely bizarre to me. If that was the case why was the past Rebbi even appointed when his father died? According to you nothing changed and he was still as much alive and capable even after he was nifter and your relationship stays the same. If that’s true why did they appoint his son to be Rebbi ?why didn’t everyone just continue their relationship with the original Rebbi after he was nifter ?

PinkFridge

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 3:26 pm

mom24b wrote:

It's hard to get through one long paragraph so I'll just comment on this.
Neshamos can't accrue more zechuyos without the guf to help it. But what does the yeshiva shel ma'aleh mean if not learning? Coming close to Hashem without understanding who He is in a very profound way?

mom24b

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 3:27 pm

8x wrote:

Please read them to see which sefarim are quoted.

I did read it and I believe they are all Chabad that’s why I asked which one isn’t ?