Tefillos at the Rebbe's ohel

PinkFridge

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 3:35 pm

mom24b wrote:

I did read it and I believe they are all Chabad that’s why I asked which one isn’t ?

Are all the sources they quote Chabad?

mom24b

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 3:43 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

It's hard to get through one long paragraph so I'll just comment on this.
Neshamos can't accrue more zechuyos without the guf to help it. But what does the yeshiva shel ma'aleh mean if not learning? Coming close to Hashem without understanding who He is in a very profound way?

My understanding is “basking in the glory of the neshama being one with the shechina tgey toiled to connect with in this world by means of the Torah and mitzvos they accomplished in this world . But however we want to understand it we both agree on the fact that once someone is dead can’t accrue anymore without a guf. So why are ppl upset with me saying we aren’t allowed to believe the dead have power. Accrue means attaining, attaining means getting by way of doing something. We all agree they can’t do that anymore. Therefore we don’t believe the dead can do for the living m, we believe the living who have a guf can do mitzvos, learn and Daven for the nifter. The words of El maleh Rachamim that we say for the nifter is : in the zechus we give tzedaka for the neshama of the nifter, their neshama should have a resting place on high…. Do you say El maleh rachamim at the Ohel? I’m genuinely asking I’m not trying to be antagonistic.

mom24b

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 3:48 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Are all the sources they quote Chabad?

I believe all 3 links are chabad run websites. Are they not? If not which one isn’t ?

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 3:49 pm

Mom24b there are several sefarim listed in two of the links which are nonchabad.
Just wanted to say you ask good questions, but they require lengthy answers. Perhaps after shabbos we can start to answer them one by one.

mom24b

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 4:05 pm

8x wrote:

Thank you . I truly would love to understand
Good Shabbos

Thisisnotmyreal

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 4:28 pm

[

Quote:

According to your view of death the only thing that changes is your ability to see the person. So it’s essentially the same as someone who moved to a far away country that you can’t get to

The Rebbe in fact told this to a grieving family for their son. Similar example and all.

Quote:

at the Levaya when we can still talk

Why? What changes after burial?

Of course we mourn, there's a major change to the dynamic of the relationship. Doesn't mean it's over. Not by a long shot.

Quote:

If that’s true why did they appoint his son to be Rebbi ?why didn’t everyone just continue their relationship with the original Rebbi after he was nifter ?

We do that too but there is a difference between the Rebbe and other generations.

Relationship with the Rebbe is called hiskashrus. We connect to the Rebbe through various means. Listening to their niggunim
Learning the Torah he taught
Following directives
Going on Shlichus
Writing to the Rebbe
Farbrengens
Watching Rebbe videos
And more.

See the Rebbe's sicha on matnas nessiim in the year Tof shin mem vov for.more details on hiskashrus with the Frierdiker Rebbe.

dena613

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 5:35 pm

Delete

Last edited by dena613 on Fri, Jun 23 2023, 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

Thisisnotmyreal

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 5:43 pm

[

That's an insane conclusion. There's nothing to explain.

Last edited by Thisisnotmyreal on Fri, Jun 23 2023, 7:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

The Happy Wife

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 5:55 pm

Thisisnotmyreal wrote:

That's an insane conclusion. There's nothing to explain.

Regardless of the conclusion, it does cause some questions because isn't it assur to pray in front of a picture?

farmom

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 6:09 pm

dena613 wrote:

While possibly a minority, there are lubavitchers who daven at home to the picture of the Rebba. (My friend was an eyewitness to her Chabad neighbor doing so.)

I'm wondering if any posters on this thread do that, and if so, can they explain it.

I am not anti-Chabad and respect much of their kiruv effort and their hasmadah at learning.

I would sooner think there was a misunderstanding than them doing something against halacha. Perhaps your friend misunderstood what was what happening and can ask her neighbor.
(Maybe they didn't realize the picture of the Rebbe was above where they stood to daven?)

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 6:14 pm

dena613 wrote:

Sounds like a huge misunderstanding and motzi shem ra.

dena613

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 6:17 pm

Okay. I'll delete my post because of lashon hara.

I really don't think it was a misunderstanding though.

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 6:21 pm

dena613 wrote:

Okay. I'll delete my post because of lashon hara.

I really don't think it was a misunderstanding though.

What makes you think it wasn't a misunderstanding?

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 6:33 pm

mom24b wrote:

Thank you . I truly would love to understand
Good Shabbos

These excerpts from one of the links I posted answer some of the points you brought up:

mom24b

Fri, Jun 23 2023, 7:48 pm

8x wrote:

These excerpts from one of the links I posted answer some of the points you brought up:

And this is why the average person isn’t supposed to learn the Zohar. If you don’t have extreme Torah knowledge you can’t understand its meaning and intentions. Taking it at face value is most likely very misguided.

werty

Sat, Jun 24 2023, 4:49 pm

zaq wrote:

Catholicism believes in intercessory prayer, iow praying to a saint to intercede on one's behalf. I fail to see a difference.

I repeat: if you address the tzaddik and ask him to plead on your behalf, you're davening to him. That's my position and I'm sticking to it.

How is asking someone to daven for you , davening to him ?
If you ask someone to daven for a sick r"l person, are you davening to them ?

P.s. theory aside, if you peruse all the frum magazines etc, you'll notice big ads offering all different ( certainly including, if not mostly, litvish ) Gedolim to daven for you at different special places, ( including kivrei Tzadikim PPS) or at specific special times like before Rish Hashana, if you donate money to this or that Tzedaka.
So if you disapprove of the Lubavitcher Rebbe davening for people , then I assume you'll have to take it up with your Gadol as well. Its just the natural thing to do if you care about someone..

If the issue is a deceased person davening for you, then how do you like the story of Mamme Rachel crying for her children? Do you not think that refers to davening ? Yes, after a person passes away, their neshomo lives on and continues its relationship with Hashem. A neshomo never stops davening, in fact that is exactly what we mean when we refer to things like "basking in the Shechina" - the ability to feel closeness with Hashem being incomparably more accessible than ever! A neshomo in this world is essentially davening all the time as well, I.e. praising, loving, yearning for Hashem. When we actually daven with words we give expression to the neshomo's natural and constant feelings. We so to speak get a chance to "hear"our neshomo, and tune into our deeper selves.

Once a neshomo leaves this world it cannot do any more miztvos , that is true. No one said they can. That is why it is sad that they pass away, because for all the accessible closeness in the next world, a mitzva is actually fulfilling Hashems Will. And that should be more precious to us than our own feelings of closeness to Him.
(These two conflicting aspects of avodas Hashem - called gilui and etzem , are discussed at length in chassidus. Both important, but ultimately, "hamayse hu haikur", the point of creation is to change this physical world through Torah and Mitzvos, and so our time davka in this world is so precious)

But yes, to this who said it's absurd to continue a relationship with a deceased person. Don't you think it's even more absurd to consider your deceased relative nonexistent now that they have died ? What were they - just a body ?

werty

Sat, Jun 24 2023, 5:03 pm

mom24b wrote:

I don’t understand why you are upset that I said you are not allowed to believe that the dead have any kochos. There’s nothing to be upset about, it is a fact that once someone dies they can no longer learn Torah or do mitzvos that’s why we are sad. If they still have all their capabilities and you can still maintain a “relationship” with the dead then why are you sad when someone dies? Why is there a concept of shiva and halachos of mourning. According to your view of death the only thing that changes is your ability to see the person. So it’s essentially the same as someone who moved to a far away country that you can’t get to . If that’s your view of death then please explain the countless mishnayos telling us we can only do and accomplish in this world. Why the focus on accomplishing all we can in this world it one can still do the exact same in the next world? Torah explicitly tells us you can no longer do anything in the next world. You come ti the next world with what you accomplished in this world. Once you die you can no longer attain anything more in Torah or mitzvahs. Why do you think there’s a concept of Bitul Torah if you can just continue up there and nothing changes ? What does hazman katzar vehavoda merubah mean? Mishetarach Berev shabbos Yochel Bshabbos, Holam Haze domeh lapruzdor …. What do you think these Mishnayos mean if nothing changes and the dead continue on exactly as they are in this world? What your saying doesn’t make sense. Nobody believes you should have a relationship with the dead. What do you mean you maintain your relationship with the Rebbi?!? Please show me one source in the Torah that shows someone “maintaining a relationship” with someone not alive. The Torah teaches us that Avraham Avinu bah lvkos as Sarah he cried over her and mourned. If he could just continue his relationship with her since essentially nothing changed when she died other than he could no longer be in her proximity why did he mourn and cry? Where does it show that he maintained a relationship with her? Where does the Torah show anyone maintaining the same relationship with someone dead?? It doesn’t because it’s not possible and believing that it is and they do have ability’s in the next world is not allowed. Non chassidim also use the term meilitz yosher but we ask the nifter at the Levaya when we can still talk to the nifter once they are buried we do not and can not talk to the dead. What a meis can do or not do is not our business and we don’t know. But we are not allowed to believe they have the ability to do anything. Saying you can maintain a relationship with someone dead is in my opinion absurd. If that were the case I would still have a close relationship with my mother, but I don’t because she’s dead. What I do have are memories of our relationship that I can keep alive, but I can’t actively have a relationship with her. Implying that you can have a relationship with the Rebbi who is no longer living is extremely bizarre to me. If that was the case why was the past Rebbi even appointed when his father died? According to you nothing changed and he was still as much alive and capable even after he was nifter and your relationship stays the same. If that’s true why did they appoint his son to be Rebbi ?why didn’t everyone just continue their relationship with the original Rebbi after he was nifter ?

If you ask the niftar at the levaya to be a meilitz yoshar , how does that make more sense to you than after they are buried ? They are not alive then either. Maybe there are different opinions on when it is appropriate ask such a thing of a niftar, I don't know, but if you are so determined that dead people can't daven for you, then how is this different?

As far as your question , why should a different Rebbe be appointed if you can continue the relationship with the previous one:
A Rebbe does a lot more than just daven on your behalf, much as a parent or teacher does more than just daven for their child. A child who has r"l lost a parent misses the physical presence of his parent! He misses hearing them, seeing them, their guidance, their involvement, their presence, their everything! I understand that you unfortunately know this too well Sad

But that does not mean that they no longer exist, and don't see and hear you. Absolutely not. They hear and see more than ever, and you can talk to them and share your life with them emotionally. Although the lack of their ability to respond is obviously sorely missing.

Sat, Jun 24 2023, 10:33 pm

mom24b wrote:

This piece of Zohar the Tanya quotes and explains as well as other places in chassidus, in depth. There is no layman here interpreting kabbalah. This is straight out and clear.

Thisisnotmyreal

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 12:19 am

mom24b wrote:

The two people involved in the article Rabbi Shick and Rabbi Freeman are hardly the average person. Please have some respect.

PinkFridge

Sun, Jun 25 2023, 8:57 am

mom24b wrote:

What about Rochel mevaka al baneha?