NY Magazine cover story this week

downsyndrome

Sun, Jul 20 2008, 1:01 am

cassandra wrote:

downsyndrome wrote:

Cassandra, of course we are all entitled to our opinion here on Imamother and in life in general, but if you can say that the interview wasn't pretty much an all out against her community AND religion, well then, what is? Yes, she did it to promote her agenda, I.e. the child custody battle (which she most likely lost by putting her foot in her mouth and admitting to all the garbage that she is into - bars, drugs, etc.) but she needed sensation in order to make a good read, and she was willing to provide that sensation at no matter what the cost was to her family and community (and religion!). And yes, in the world of liberalism, Jew-haters, and self-hating Jews she certainly got herself a nice audience. She didn't need to attract the 6 billion persons who make up the world population; she just needed to get 11 pages and the cover story of New York magazine; believe me that is enough. She achieved the desired effect.

She didn't need to, but she did, and you sound like she did it as a personal affront to you, otherwise I don't understand what your original. She obviously has very negative feelings about her community and her family, otherwise she wouldn't have done it. Are you saying that she should have respect for the community she doesn't respect and should have not agreed to this article even though she thinks it may benefit her? That's counterintuitive.

downsyndrome

Sun, Jul 20 2008, 1:09 am

sister wrote:

Im so ashamed for all of you who are sitting here judging this family based on an article in a magazine. seriously??????? Aside from the lashon hora (slander) in this article and the stuff you hear about her from your neighbors or community, or even her Ex's mouth, do any of you really trully know them? Do any of you have an idea of what she has been through? where she comes from? what its been like for her? Do any of you have a psychology background? Any of you know the impact of early childhood experiences and/or social experiences on later life? Do any of you know the length of time it takes to gain a standard education once deprived of it in early years? you all seem to think you do. Do any of you know intimately what it means to grow up in her family? What her life has been like? What her struggle has been like? Maybe we should stop judging. Hearing gossip, reading an article, even growing up in KJ, escaping KJ, does not make you Gittie. Unless you are her, you dont know her and what she deals with. Even if you think you have gone through "the same thing". Everyone is an individual and is affected differently by their family, upbringing, experiences, personality, and challenges. Gd created us as individuals. No one can ever understand "exactly what its like". Regardless of your self richeous ideas about custody, drugs, religioun.... You DO NOT Know what her life is about, what her journey here is, what her challenges are. So lets stop deciding what we would do if we were in that situation, what we think she should do, lets stop concluding what she is... She is an individual battling this. Support her as an individual. Stop judging.

Sorry to disappoint you, sister, I don't know what your credentials in psychology are, but I can definitely say that you are spewing secular liberalism.
I just listened to a 2-hour lecture from a frum rav who is a 'mumcha' in human psychology and I wish every single person on this universe would listen to it. It was a lecture on how each person has to take responsibility for his/her own life and stop blaming A, B, & C. It was so poignant, so powerful, and so truthful.
My husband and I just looked at each other as we listened to the lecture (on tape, while we were driving) and we smiled knowingly cuz we also have some acquaintances who are leading pretty lousy lifestyles and they are also trying to blame the entire world for their woes, instead of just looking at themselves real closely in the mirror and saying, "Hey, it's time for me to shape up."

Maya

Sun, Jul 20 2008, 1:21 am

Quote:

Maya, I know you're not naive enough to believe everything you read. We have no clue what was said and how much is embellishment.

I haven't read the entire article, just the quotes from this thread. Being Chassidish, and having many relatives living in KJ, I know that a lot of it was embellishment and exaggeration.

Quote:

Meaning, everyone who goes off from KJ has this view of non jews that they strive to meet, not realizing they can be less frum, or join a different branch of yiddishkeit, or even live as non jews but normally. They think they need to do drugs and go the whole way once they deviate even just a bit

Gamzu, I think it reflects immaturity, extreme rebelliousness and maybe not enough brains, rather than what you wrote. I don't think they are taught that view of non jews, and everyone knows that there are other sects of Judaism that they can live with, and that Hasidism isn't the only way to go. It isn't Chassidishkeit or drugs, and they know it. I know quite a few who have turned away from Hasidism, but didn't go all the way.

Dayzmom

Sun, Jul 20 2008, 1:42 am

Sadly, there are many youngsters who don't know the difference between halacha, minhag, machmir and mehudar. They are taught that everything is equally assur (for eg. kosher). When they decide to rebel they will eat a cheeseburger as easily as they would eat something OU Dairy. It's all the same. To them it's the same to go to the movies on yom kippur as it is to go on an average evening. There is no difference to them - they throw it all away as if it's all or nothing. This is very sad. Our children need to know what is halacha and what is extra. Obviously we want our kids to hold by the standards we teach them but we owe it to them (if they are showing signs of rebellion) to show them other kinds of Jews and what are basic halachos that ALL Jews follow.

It's very easy to judge others and extremely difficult to look within ourselves. Let's spend less time "figuring out" everyone else's motives and do what we can to build the bridges instead of burning them. Let's do what we can in each of our communities and sects to bring Kiddush Hashem upon us instead of blaming someone else for doing the opposite. That certainly won't help.

cassandra

Sun, Jul 20 2008, 9:15 am

downsyndrome wrote:

Yes, of course it is a personal affront to me and it should be to you too, cuz now we have, once again, thousands or perhaps millions, of non-Jews and secular Jews who have once again been given an opportunity to laugh at us and taunt us because one of our very own decided to make a mockery of us.

You know what? Years ago I watched a movie about a young Amish boy who has 'gone off the derech' - the Amish derech. The film was done in such good taste; it was all about HIM and his struggles and HIS not being able to conform. It was NOT about how awful the Amish way of life is; there was no taunting nor degrading the Amish for their steadfast beliefs and principles..[/quote]

I didn't see what you see in the article at all. I also saw it as a personal struggle, and perhaps you can't see it that way because they are talking about you, just like you could be objective about the Amish movie, but perhaps some Amish themselves weren't too happy with it?

And yes, I think the NY Mag would do an article about anyone decrying any religion. They do it all the time. They aren't specifically biased against Orthodoxy, they are biased against everyone except a small subset of New Yorkers.

I still don't see it as a personal affront to me and I still don't see how you can expect a 22 year old girl to have made her decision whether or not to do this article based on how it was going to make you feel. Perhaps this is the kind of attitude among some in the community that she's been hurt by and left her where she is?

cassandra

Sun, Jul 20 2008, 9:18 am

Maya wrote:

. I don't think they are taught that view of non jews, and everyone knows that there are other sects of Judaism that they can live with, and that Hasidism isn't the only way to go. It isn't Chassidishkeit or drugs, and they know it. I know quite a few who have turned away from Hasidism, but didn't go all the way.

Then why are there no defected Chasidim living in my community or communities like mine? If it were really such an easy choice wouldn't there be more?

ora_43

Sun, Jul 20 2008, 10:08 am

GAMZu wrote:

He also said that the view they have of non jews is that they all are druggies and sleep around with anything and everything, and if you're not 100% up to their standards (which Gitty never had a chance at being, at all) you're as good as the druggie non jews.
Meaning, everyone who goes off from KJ has this view of non jews that they strive to meet, not realizing they can be less frum, or join a different branch of yiddishkeit, or even live as non jews but normally. They think they need to do drugs and go the whole way once they deviate even just a bit.

I thought about that as well. I've met several drop-outs from Israeli hareidi families and many of them seemed to have this expectation that all non-hareidim are promiscuous and on drugs. They seemed honestly surprised at the negative reactions their behavior (inappropriate remarks to dati leumi girls, drunkenness) drew from others.

However, I don't think most former hareidim/chassidim are like that. Most realize that there are other valid paths to Torah observance, and that secular society is not so radically different from their own world as one might think from watching TV or reading the papers. The thing is, people tend not to notice the former hareidim or chassidim who didn't go dramatically off the derech. I know several people in their teens and early 20s who grew up in very frum homes but are now minimally observant or not religious at all. You would never know it unless you knew them pretty well. As a general rule, only those who really rebelled and are still resentful make a point of telling everyone about their background.

Chani

Sun, Jul 20 2008, 10:12 am

I can definitely understand why one would be upset by the article, and certainly portions of it didn't ring true; however I have to say that I do have some feeling of sympathy for the girl herself as well as her ex and their daughter most of all. What is someone to do if they have a child, but no longer believe that the community in which they live is the right one for them? It's easy to say, well, she married her husband with this understanding so if she chooses to leave it, of course he should have the child. What if we were talking about a frei couple with children and the wife wanted to become BT...should she just walk away from her child, because afterall, when she married her DH it was with an understanding that they would live a secular life? Of course not, what really drives the difference is that we believe she's leaving truth for something less. For every Gitty, I fear that there are a hundred others just like her (from all walks of orthodox life - Satmar to MO) who, because of their families, never make the break and go along in their "frum" lives, outwardly frum but inwardly not connected to yiddishkeit and resentful of it all - and that is a tragedy. What can we do to be mekarev our own, the people who are already frum on the surface but drifting away internally?

I keep thinking back to when my husband was driving from TN to OH when we moved. He was by himself (the rest of us had moved a month or two ahead of him), and his car was loaded with various things. DH stopped for the night and started shlepping his stuff into the hotel, as he was worried about leaving things visible in the car overnight. A totally frei guy came over and asked if he needed help. They started talking, and it turned out that this fellow was an FFB who had gone to a big name Litvish yeshiva and then gone OTD several years ago. My DH I know has thought about this anonymous fellow through the years. Where did things go wrong for him? Why wasn't he inspired by the ideas and people who inspired us? How did he get there from where he started? It seems like there should have been more safety nets - a couple of best friends who were a good spiritual influence, love of parents, rabbeim who took a personal interest in him...something that would help him attach to Hashem and to the beauty and meaning in life. Or maybe they were there, but there was something inside of him that just made him unable to respond.

This all just makes me sad.

Apple pie

Sun, Jul 20 2008, 10:38 am

Quote:

We have seen this very mentality reflected a few times on this site more than a few times.

Chani, the example of a BT is very relevant. I wrote the same point here: http://www.imamother.com/forum.....52342

GAMZu

Sun, Jul 20 2008, 11:19 am

Quote:

However, I don't think most former hareidim/chassidim are like that. Most realize that there are other valid paths to Torah observance, and that secular society is not so radically different from their own world as one might think from watching TV or reading the papers.

Usually the people who realize that there is a middle path and they don't have to become the scum of the earth in order to truly go off are older, wiser and more experienced.

How can a little girl in her early 20s realize this if she has been taught that it's the KJ way or the criminal way?

Maya

Sun, Jul 20 2008, 11:39 am

GAMZu wrote:

Quote:

I'm 23, the same age as this 'little girl'. And I was raised in Williamsburg. Why am I different than her? And yet, I still realize that there are other sects in Judaism which are totally valid. I stand by my opinion that her behavior comes from being immature and not so smart. I'm sorry if this offends anyone.

Besides, I'm still questioning if they're really taught that it's either the KJ way or the criminal way.

cassandra

Sun, Jul 20 2008, 12:05 pm

Motek wrote:

cassandra wrote:

And yes, I think the NY Mag would do an article about anyone decrying any religion. They do it all the time.

Which other religions have they decried in which articles? Any decrying Islam?

I didn't say they decry religions since I maintain that this article was not decrying Orthodoxy. The girl herself was. And yes, if there was a similar struggle where a secular woman wanted custody of her child and her husband lived in a Muslim environment and the child was being taught in the way of religious Muslims, I could imagine the NY Mag doing a story about that. I think there was even a movie about that.