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-> Interesting Discussions
Motek
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 Sun, Jul 20 2008, 11:39 am
| Pizza wrote: | | I find that people are much more laid back about hand me downs here in Israel than in the States. |
Since the early days of the religious yishuv in Eretz Yisrael, people have lived on tzedaka. It's a way of life for many people.
"Why are you turning into a schnorrer?" is the question Jonathan Rosenblum asked a charedi yeshiva bachur who was trying to hitch a ride for a few blocks rather than walk for 5 minutes. The answer was, מקובל, it is accepted practice.
The point in his article was that today's yeshiva bachur feels no shame in taking things for free even if he could do it himself. He points out that the idea of נהמא דכיסופא (literally free bread), which means that Hashem put us on this world so that we could earn our עולם הבא so we wouldn't be embarrassed by getting a handout, is a completely foreign concept to today's yeshiva bachur.
In another article, he writes:
"We tell ourselves that poverty in the chareidi world is a function of our commitment to Torah learning. And to a large extent that is true. But there are large pockets of endemic poverty in our world that have little to do with Torah learning. The majority of those who descend on every affluent Torah community abroad are not in full-time learning nor do their efforts allow them much time for Torah study.
"A 19-year-old appeared at my door recently, and told me he was collecting for his family of 13. I gave him a fairly large sum, but when he returned a few weeks later, I asked him whether he was still learning in yeshiva. He looked at me as if I were crazy to think that he could still be learning while serving as the principal support for his large family.
"I told him that I was impressed by how articulate he was, and felt that he had talents that could be developed. But if he continued on his present path, he could look forward to remaining a schnorrer for the rest of his life. If so, he would simply join a growing community in which begging is the most common “profession,” and in which there is no social safety net in tragic cases because there are so few within the extended family or social circle who work. He was profoundly grateful when I referred him to a chareidi-run job training program."
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Motek
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 11:48 am
| ChossidMom wrote: | | I'm a very giving person. Yet, if someone wants to give me nice clothing - why in the world not? I get tons of hand me downs for my daughter and it saves me alot of money. It has nothing in the world to do with being a giver or a taker. |
Taking has nothing to do with being a taker? Oh.
Perhaps what you mean is, that we all give and take and we choose in which areas to give and in which to take.
I know someone like yourself. She takes clothing packages and she is also a very generous person.
I've also read about some upper-class Jews from Germany (not sure, maybe Breuer) who, when they came as poor immigrants to America, she worked cleaning houses. It was demeaning work for her, but it was work, and it was important to her to be self-sufficient not a charity case.
Like what do we mean when say in the bentching when we ask Hashem not to make us need people's gifts nor their loans, but to receive from Hashem's full, open, holy and expansive hand so we are never shamed nor embarrassed.
How can we ask this of Hashem while simultaneously saying:
sure! of course I would take from others! free? definitely! why not?
I am puzzling this through for myself (hence this thread), thinking about different choices I made over the years.
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bashinda
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 12:14 pm
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When you take people's clothing you're helping them also. Usually people are more than happy not to have the clothing cluttering up their home. It ends up being a win-win situation.
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Pickle Lady
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 1:00 pm
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I take it with no problem. No one notices if a child is wearing hand-me downs unless they are really tattered. When my sons were young I used to buy used clothing from ebay. So not only have I taken it but I have bought it also. I also like used clothing for myself and my husband. The only things I don't take used are undergarments, socks and shoes.
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grin
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 1:09 pm
| Pickle Lady wrote: | | I take it with no problem. No one notices if a child is wearing hand-me downs unless they are really tattered. When my sons were young I used to buy used clothing from ebay. So not only have I taken it but I have bought it also. I also like used clothing for myself and my husband. The only things I don't take used are undergarments, socks and shoes. |
ditto for me - my best stuff comes form the 2nd-hand store (for 5 NIS apiece - shush, don't tell) - they don't make the styles I like anymore and I can't even find them new!
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willow
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 1:19 pm
Motek, I don't get whats wrong with taking clothes? Are you saying it makes you a taker and that's bad.
Maybe (just a thought) taking sometimes is actually being humble. Saying yes I need help (or in this case clothes) is wrong, or honest and humble?
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Ruchel
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 1:29 pm
| Motek wrote: | | Ruchel wrote: | | (I would also take nice but old clothes. |
if you don't mind answering - have you ever? |
yup
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Motek
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 1:30 pm
| willow wrote: | | Are you saying it makes you a taker and that's bad. |
I said I wonder how we can pray not to be the recipients of gifts and then say yippie about them.
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Ruchel
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 1:34 pm
| Pickle Lady wrote: | | No one notices if a child is wearing hand-me downs unless they are really tattered. When my sons were young I used to buy used clothing from ebay. |
I bought a lot on ebay for my dd, as well as in normal shops. You find stuff that you would never find irl especially for such a price! I also bought almost all my preg clothes on ebay as nice preg clothes were so hard to find, and like 100 dollars a frumpy (or untznius) top... when I could find a used but new looking and cute one for 10 on ebay...
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MommyLuv
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 1:43 pm
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I think people who accept used goods are the most giving consumers of us all-they're giving the environment a break from all the greenhouse gases produced in manufacturing, processing and shipping new goods!
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willow
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 3:43 pm
| Motek wrote: |
Like what do we mean when say in the bentching when we ask Hashem not to make us need people's gifts nor their loans, but to receive from Hashem's full, open, holy and expansive hand so we are never shamed nor embarrassed.
How can we ask this of Hashem while simultaneously saying:
sure! of course I would take from others! free? definitely! why not?
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It's a really good question. I would think the Brocha means that we are asking that H-shem should give us in a way that we are self-sufficient, without asking from others. To not have to be in the position to take. Yet it's Bitochon to say I need it. Whatever it is- it's being offered and it's not even "that person" giving it its H-shem. When you take, even though its coming from a person offering it to you its our job to look at it as being given by H-shem. I am not really sure I don't have such closure on it either. Something to think about.
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Tefila
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 3:52 pm
You know I have no problem taking aswell as no problem giving. I'd like to consider myself generous in both of myself personally and when giving stuff to others, Why should I be the only one to get the mitzvah let them feel that they are doing a mitzvah too. And yes it builds u up knowning you have made someone else feel happy, and humbles you too when you accept it since makes you realize you are not the only G-d's gift to humanity that can give but that there are others too. 
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Meema2Kids
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 3:55 pm
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My rav explained it like this (this was his shabbos shuva shiur, so hopefully I'm remembering it correctly): you can take in a way that makes you a giver. If you never let anyone help you, where YOU are always the one doing the giving, then you're not giving in the right way. Sometimes you have to GIVE someone the opportunity to give to you. Does that make sense?
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Meema2Kids
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 4:02 pm
Here's an example:
Someone gives you a tacky, terrible gift. You accept it graciously and make sure it is on display (at least when that person visits). Are you a giver or a taker?
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ChossidMom
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 4:10 pm
| Meema2Kids wrote: | | My rav explained it like this (this was his shabbos shuva shiur, so hopefully I'm remembering it correctly): you can take in a way that makes you a giver. If you never let anyone help you, where YOU are always the one doing the giving, then you're not giving in the right way. Sometimes you have to GIVE someone the opportunity to give to you. Does that make sense? |
VERY well said. Makes alot of sense. There are a million examples.
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zufriedene
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 4:21 pm
thats how we brought up our children on a tight budget here in EY. It was an opputunity to refreshen the wardrobe and an exciting event as well, the day the packages arrived from England and we could pick the clothing that fit,
I do get upset when today packages come from the USA with clothing that might have been very expensive 8 years, but is totally outdated today in Israel
WE might be poor , but cant really wear items from 10 years ago.
Clothing thats in good condition 2-3 years old is very welcome
Ive made a rule with my daughters , we always wash or dry clean every garment, and then enjoy it. I doubt if this makes us takers, it makes us mistapkim bmiut, and we are able this way to still give charity.
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ChossidMom
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 4:29 pm
| zufriedene wrote: |
Ive made a rule with my daughters , we always wash or dry clean every garment, and then enjoy it. I doubt if this makes us takers, it makes us mistapkim bmiut, and we are able this way to still give charity. |
 Well said!!!
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shalhevet
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 5:27 pm
Motek, has it occurred to you how reading this thread feels to those who can't afford new clothes? In EY a piece of clothing for a kolel or otherwise hard-up family is a major purchase, carefully planned. Of course we daven that our parnassa comes directly from haKadosh Baruch Hu without going through 'biydei basar v'dam' because that is how people ideally like to live. But those are not the circumstances Hashem gives to everyone.
As red sea said before taking clothes prevents bal tashchis, and the fact that families accept second hand clothes does not make them 'takers' - we all have times and facets in our lives and mean we need to take or to give - that is how Hashem designed the world עולם חסד יבנה
What would you say about a family who 'take' clothes but have Shabbos guests and run a gemach? I can think of plenty of families in EY like that.
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Motek
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 6:46 pm
| shalhevet wrote: | | Of course we daven that our parnassa comes directly from haKadosh Baruch Hu without going through 'biydei basar v'dam' because that is how people ideally like to live. |
I don't see that as compatible with those who are thrilled to take handouts because they are free and "why not."
You seemed to have missed the fact that Rosenblum, who lives in Israel, is aware of the poverty there and chose to write as he did since he sees the "es kumt mir" mentality as problematic. And he chose to write about this in English and have it published so that people all over the world can read it. Perhaps, wherever we live, we can pause to think about it.
That is not to say that anybody here on the forum suffers from that malady.
It's something to think about.
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Barbara
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Sun, Jul 20 2008, 7:00 pm
| yitta25 wrote: | I would definitely go through them and pick out the stuff I like if it is from someone I know well and they dress the same or better than I do.
BTW, I have a huge bag of clothing, mostly size 8-12 ladies and some childrens and men stuff. Anyone know where I can drop off in Brooklyn?? |
My apartment? If that makes me a taker, so be it.
I've lost a lot of weight, and am hopefully heading towards those sizes. I also have bags of perfect-condition clothing in my old sizes waiting for a good home via my shul clothing drive. If I knew anyone who would admit to wearing my old sizes (up to 20W), I'd gladly pass them on. If someone had some things in my current size, I'd glaly take them. Why not? Its environmentally and economically sound; the money saved can be used for tzedaka or tuition or even retirement savings! I'd only take what I could use, though.
(Just kidding about taking the clothes, BTW. I don't live anywhere near Brooklyn.)
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