Would you take clothes?

shalhevet

Sun, Jul 20 2008, 11:26 pm

I read this thread last night for the first time, and replied straight away, but now I've had time to think about it a little.

Having slept on it, I am absolutely amazed.

The Torah values living modestly, not being wasteful, using our resources for serving Hashem. Suddenly someone comes along and says that someone with the money to buy new clothes (nothing wrong than that) is not only richer than the Jew who receives used clothing, but is frummer too shock

.

Hashem created this world in a way that we need one another.
Is a kalla a 'taker' because people take the time and trouble to come to her chassuna and dance with her? Is someone in aveilus, r"l, a 'taker' because people are using their resources to be with him and maybe bring him food too? As we go through life we have times that we are 'takers' and others when we are 'givers'. The baby who 'took' all the time grows up to become a mother and 'gives' to her children. The new BT who was a 'taker' and ate Shabbos meals at other families, sets up their own home and invites and helps the next generation of BTs.

When people want to dispose of old clothing, furniture, toys etc they are usually delighted that someone else will have use of what they are emotionally attached to, rather than it being thrown away. So maybe someone agreeing to use the second hand clothes is 'giving'? The person receiving it makes use of items that they would have had to (or could not afford to) buy, meaning their money could be used for other things - mitzvas, tzedoko, chinuch etc, or sometimes the husband could work less hours and learn for more, or the wife work less and be with her children more.

Maybe if the community in America started happily accepting used clothing they would have more money for tuition?

The article wasn't quoted so I have no idea what was written there, but the fact that someone who lives in Israel wrote it means not very much. There are places in Israel where people live American-style lives, and/or maybe he has an American mentality. Maybe he is referring to something else, that I do see as negative - people getting all excited that they got something for free whether or not they need it, and even though it will just clutter up their home.

HindaRochel

Sun, Jul 20 2008, 11:48 pm

There is a difference between reusing and recycling and schnorring.
Even if a person has the money to purchase new clothes, and instead use old clothes what they are doing is saving and protecting, not schnorring.
Schnorring is asking for something that one could, with effort, get for themselves, but isn't willing to work for. At least that what it means to me.
Requests for tzedakkah and schnorring are two different things.
If an item would otherwise be disgarded then it is makes sense to take it in and use it.

mimivan

Sun, Jul 20 2008, 11:58 pm

ChossidMom wrote:

Motek wrote:

To get a little more philosophical about this (with no offense meant to anyone, I think this is usually inborn, part of our nature and/or mazal) -

I think there is also the issue of being a "taker" and a "giver."

Some people are happy to accept things that are free.

Some people are uncomfortable being on the receiving end (though they might do it anyway, out of necessity).

I'm not talking about the normal receiving from loved ones here. I'm talking about those who jump at the chance of getting a free something-or-other, whose philosophy is, "if it's free and available, sure, why not?" versus though who want to pay their own way, not be the recipient of someone else's largesse.

chossidmom :

Quote:

Baloney.
I'm a very giving person. Yet, if someone wants to give me nice clothing - why in the world not? I get tons of hand me downs for my daughter and it saves me alot of money. It has nothing in the world to do with being a giver or a taker.

I can vouch for the fact Chossidmom is a very giving person...
And after years of being a martyr, I think it is healthy for a person to ask for what they need. Someone scolded me in those days I was afraid of asking, and said I was robbing others of doing a mitzvah!
This doesn't mean saying "give me, give me" all the time...but why not give someone the chance to do a mitzvah when they can?

Motek, I don't know if you ever heard the story from the Baal Shem tov...he went to a poor man's house and ate everything the man had. When the man was left wihtout a crumb in the house and the Besht's companion scolded him as soon as they left.
"how could you have eaten all this poor man's food?" the companion said.
The Besht (who had ruach ha kodesh) explained that this man was the type who never asked for anything and turned down any offers of help or tzedaka...He needed to reach a point where he would ask Hashem for what he needed (and presumably others as well)

Last edited by mimivan on Mon, Jul 21 2008, 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total

mali

Mon, Jul 21 2008, 12:20 am

Motek, is this your personal opinion, or you heard something at a Shiur? This mindset of ch"v not being on the taking side is totally distorted and not in line with what Yiddishkeit generally teaches us.

Yes, we ask Hashem every day ונא אל תצריכנו...לא לידי מתנת בשר ודם ולא לידי הלוואתם. But when Hashem sends us clothing through someone else, do we dump it and tell Him, "no, give it to me directly from the store"?! Are those the priorities we should raise our children with - "don't take anything from anyone if you can spend money on it and buy it in the store!"???

I find this concept troubling and condescending. The art of giving is an intrinsic jewish trait (גומלי חסדים). This doesn't change according to the person's status or location! And I'd take it a step further and say that one who doesn't know how to take probably doesn't value giving either.

ora_43

Mon, Jul 21 2008, 12:52 am

Motek wrote:

Like what do we mean when say in the bentching when we ask Hashem not to make us need people's gifts nor their loans, but to receive from Hashem's full, open, holy and expansive hand so we are never shamed nor embarrassed.

How can we ask this of Hashem while simultaneously saying:
sure! of course I would take from others! free? definitely! why not?

We ask Hashem not to make us NEED gifts, not that we should never receive gifts at all. Yes, I think it's natural and even healthy to feel shame when you can't buy necessary things for yourself and your family. But if you can afford the basics, why feel shame if someone offers you a present as well?

Everyone responding so far seems to assume that the giver is offering things that s/he genuinely does not need or want anymore. So the recipient isn't taking tzedaka, she's taking unwanted things that would otherwise be disposed of in a different way. "One man's trash is another man's treasure," as they say. Why turn down what would be useful to you, when it's garbage to the other person? You lose out, and they don't gain.

I think Rachel Ann/Hinda Rochel put it very well. There's a big difference between asking for something and being happy to receive it. If you prefer going around begging for clothing to working so you can pay for clothing on your own (assuming the latter is an option), that would be problematic and not compatible with our daily prayers. But if someone approaches you with clothing, that's a different story.

I don't get the big deal with the bochur who hitched a ride, btw. If you ask someone for money and they give you, they are now lacking a certain sum of money. But if you ask them for a ride, you benefit, they don't lose, what's the big deal? If I had a car, and money for insurance and gas, I'd be more than happy to give rides. It's one of the easiest acts of chessed you can do around here.

zufriedene

Mon, Jul 21 2008, 12:59 am

we rely on HKBH to give us all that we need, but who gave that great LADY IN ENGLAND THE SEICHEL AND MEANS TO SEND A CARTON OF BEAUTIFUL USED CLOTHING, to arrive in EY just before the Yomom tovim or just before a real cold winter a box full of fuzzy sleeping garments and hooded jackets???
I'm convinced shes shaliach HAshem and is a zakai that is zocheh to help yiddishe children in EY. and HKBH picked her out. relying on HKBH means relying on HIm to send the right shlichum, doctors, lawyers, teachers, melamdim, and ppl that can give away their used but presentable clothing. TIzcu lmitzvos.

ChossidMom

Mon, Jul 21 2008, 1:45 am

Great posts, Ladies (especially the part about me being a giver LOL

)
Ora, thanks for your insight about what Rosenblum wrote about the guy asking for a lift. You're right about it being the easiest chesed.

By the way, it's not always the easiest. Especially when I'm going out of town with my husband and we have some precious time alone together, without kids. I certainly don't want people in the car with us and I always feel bad passing them by at the trempiada going out of Kiryat Sefer. But whenever I can I try to pick up women who look like they need a ride, in the neighborhood and out. But this must be a topic for separate thread...

Wait. According to Motek's logic, maybe noone should ever ask for a lift with someone else. Let them take the bus and PAY their own way. Twisted Evil

Sometimes people offer to pay me for taking them and I always turn them down. Why take away my chance to do a real chesed (especially if I'm driving somewhere anyway. And sometimes I go out of my way to take someone home on a hot day)!

sarahd

Mon, Jul 21 2008, 3:30 am

ora_43 wrote:

I don't get the big deal with the bochur who hitched a ride, btw. If you ask someone for money and they give you, they are now lacking a certain sum of money. But if you ask them for a ride, you benefit, they don't lose, what's the big deal? If I had a car, and money for insurance and gas, I'd be more than happy to give rides. It's one of the easiest acts of chessed you can do around here.

I guess you didn't read the article. Rosenblum was looking for a parking space when the bochur asked him for a hitch. It was a beautiful, sunny, cool/warm day. The guy wanted to be taken five blocks. He was still looking for a ride when Rosenblum finished parking his car, five minutes later. He was young and healthy, and his only response when asked why he was asking people to go out of their way for him was "zeh mekubal."

Sure, giving a ride is a relatively easy chesed - but that's for the ride-giver to consider. Asking someone to go out of his way for you when you can easily get where you're going under your own locomotion is...

This attitude of, "It's an easy chesed for him, so why shouldn't he do something for me that I'm perfectly capable of doing myself" - do you see a problem with that?

Tamiri

Mon, Jul 21 2008, 4:32 am

I was not referring to the 5-blocker. I think that's chutzpa, but (I learned to be nice on imamother) maybe he has some sort of "condition" even if it's shafshefet (chafing in the upper thigh area) which prohibits him from walking the five blocks, and since it's "mekubal" to ask for a lift, he used that excuse?
Jonathan Rosenblum is also the one whose article sparked the Pesach Hotel thread here. He may write well, but his view points are, how shall I say... um.. dismissed by others who know him. I do admit to not being one of his readers so I can't judge for myself.
I myself get a little miffed when young girls want a lift of less than a minute DOWN our hill, from the Ulpana here to the next Yishuv; it's about a 10 minute walk, but I realize that these are the tremp givers of tomorrow and perhaps they will remember my kindness and pass it forward when they have cars. So I do let them in the car and take them down.

Seraph

Mon, Jul 21 2008, 4:35 am

Motek wrote:

willow wrote:

Are you saying it makes you a taker and that's bad.

I said I wonder how we can pray not to be the recipients of gifts and then say yippie about them.

W're praying not to NEED gifts, not praying not to get them...

Its like I want to be self sufficient financially, without mom and pop supporting me... But in the meantime, until I get enough of an income to support myself fully and not be lacking, I dont mind (and would appreciate) my parents giving us "handouts". But halevai I'll have enough money to not need them.

Seraph

Mon, Jul 21 2008, 4:49 am

And to answer the original thread- myself and a fellow freind in my neighborhood talk about Gmach Hapach, the garbage gmach. We not only enjoy getting things second hand, we even take things from the dumpster.
In my apartment...
My dining room table was second hand from someone giving it away. Our beds and matresses were free, second hand. Our coffee table was free, second hand. Our armchair was free, second hand. Our couches were free from the dumpster. Our refrigerator and kitchen table and oven and chairs were bought in second hand stores.
I buy clothes from either a clothes gemach for 2-10 shekel or from the 30 shekel clothing store. (Sometimes a little more, but not often.) I got alost all of uriel's clothes second hand. I got his high chair and crib and bathtubs and bathtub seats and most of his toys second hand. I bought his stroller and car seat second hand.
Why waste money on clothes when I can get them free?

And I'm not just a taker- I've got 4 bags of clothes to head to a gemach as soon as I have a way to transport them. We all help each other and take favors from each other.

And I echo the sentiments of ora and someone else (I forget who) that there is a big difference between someone going collecting and asking for handouts (whether food or money or clothes or whatnot) and accepting what is offered.

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Jul 21 2008, 4:59 am

Motek wrote:

Pizza wrote:

I find that people are much more laid back about hand me downs here in Israel than in the States.

Since the early days of the religious yishuv in Eretz Yisrael, people have lived on tzedaka. It's a way of life for many people.

"Why are you turning into a schnorrer?" is the question Jonathan Rosenblum asked a charedi yeshiva bachur who was trying to hitch a ride for a few blocks rather than walk for 5 minutes. The answer was, מקובל, it is accepted practice.

The point in his article was that today's yeshiva bachur feels no shame in taking things for free even if he could do it himself. He points out that the idea of נהמא דכיסופא (literally free bread), which means that Hashem put us on this world so that we could earn our עולם הבא so we wouldn't be embarrassed by getting a handout, is a completely foreign concept to today's yeshiva bachur.

Yeah, because there are no such thing as a schnorrer from BP, Monsey, lakewood, etc.

ora_43

Mon, Jul 21 2008, 5:12 am

Seraph wrote:

Seraph you're so cool!!

I wanted to mention that I have not only happily taken second-hand clothes, but have also taken perfectly good things from the garbage (you should have seen the garbage bins in my university dorm in America the day before the semester ended. There was no actual garbage in them, just furniture, electronics, textbooks, and shoes + clothing, some of it brand new). But then I thought, "there are people here who said they'd only take clothes from family--do I really want to be known as the poster who takes things from the trash??" So I kept quiet, on that bit at least... Anyway, kudos to you for both making use of good furniture from "gmach hapach," and, unlike me, having the guts to be the first to admit it.

shalhevet

Mon, Jul 21 2008, 5:20 am

sarahd wrote:

ora_43 wrote:

It's a shame that we were given the impression that Rosenblum thinks that anyone getting a hitch is a taker. It would have been fairer to us and to Rosenblum to bring the story in context.

Of course there is a difference between a story like this (and why didn't Mr Rosenblum dan lchaf zechus). How did he know this bachur was healthy?

If the bachur really was young and healthy then I also see a problem in this. I was 'plagued' by someone like this a few years ago when we had children in the same gan. If we dropped off our kids at the same time she'd ask for a lift, and once it was into town. I really feel that sometimes people without a car do not understand how expensive/ time consuming/ a burden it is to give people lifts. I can be dan lchaf zchus that, having become used to taking cabs, buses and walking, it just seems so quick and simple (and free) to them for someone to give them a lift.

However that is completely different from someone asking for a ride when you are going that way anyway -

זה נהנה וזה אינו חסר

In Pirkei Avos it says that someone who says

שלי שלי ושלך שלך

What is mine, is mine, and what is yours, is yours (ie no chessed and no stealing) - this is the midda (characteristic) of Sdom.