Daughter became extreme after seminary

Chayalle

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 3:04 pm

amother Crystal wrote:

Is chin length hair unusual for single Litvish girls?

I'm just confused on why it would be an issue, as in mainstream secular culture (which I see on TV) and MO culture (which I'm a part of), short hair, chin-length and even shorter is considered totally normal.

Yes, it's unusual.

amother

Puce

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 3:05 pm

amother Midnight wrote:

Yes the cutting hair short thing is strange. Nobody advocates for that, maybe she is thinking of sheitel lengths. Pulling hair back into a pony instead of wearing loose, sure. But cutting hair short to be tznius is not a thing for single girls in mainstream circles. I guess my question is where she has gotten all these ideas from...none of them would be coming from the seminary itself. Did she meet a very extreme family there that she became close to? Like a burka adjacent family?

It doesn't have to be close to burka ladies.
When I was in sem, it was a thing that the girls who did not want to put their hair up, would usually cut it too short to wear up. I think it came from a psak or a tznius book or some rav. I obviously have forgotten the details because I was not one of those girls

Chayalle

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 3:06 pm

keym wrote:

No it exists when the teachers aren't clear.
There's a quite a movement in the BY to cut a few inches
They mean from all the way down the back to shoulder length.
But the speeches aren't always clear.
AAnd girls do misunderstand, especially when there's not such an involved or understanding mentor.
Especially if she's listening to shiurim and not understanding the context because it's not her community

It's normal these days for a very yeshivish girl to have shoulder length hair, but I haven't seen chin-length.

scruffy

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 3:09 pm

Chayalle wrote:

It's normal these days for a very yeshivish girl to have shoulder length hair, but I haven't seen chin-length.

I have but not as a frumkeit statement, as a fashion statement (usually not on the most yeshivish girls either)

It's not considered frummer to have hair shorter than shoulder length.

amother

DarkGray

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 3:11 pm

amother Midnight wrote:

6 months back is very short. I'd say it takes most girls who go such an extreme in seminary a year or two to come back to themselves.
The only thing that sounds unusual is a sudden turn to chassidus, trying to learn in Yiddish, and talking about shaving etc...that just isn't something pushed by seminaries in EY which are geared for litvish (though there are some students in some of the frummer ones who come from chassidish families). That doesn't seem like something she would have picked up in seminary.

Yes 6 mo is not that long! Wait a bit longer. Another 6 months or so.

keym

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 3:17 pm

Chayalle wrote:

It's normal these days for a very yeshivish girl to have shoulder length hair, but I haven't seen chin-length.

True.
But im envisioning a girl not raised in the RW Lakewood yeshivish community. And listening to shiurim and speeches about cutting hair. Reality, it's talking to the girls with hair 8 inches past the shoulders, telling them to cut to 6 inches.
But an earnest girl not from the community can easily listen to the shiurim and decide it means cutting from shoulder to chin.

That's what I was wondering.
If she has a Rav or mentor that OP can go TOGETHER with her daughter to hash out all these details

amother

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 4:17 pm

Thank you all for your insight, and support.

I wish there was a mentor/rav/rebbitzen we could speak with together with her. But I think that any rav/mentor who we have shaychus to (yeshivish world) is not someone she would "hold by". She might nod respectfully, but then tell herself that the world she wants to be a part of is holier. She doesn't necessarily see "normal" as a good thing. She has told us herself that there are other variations of normal.

Unfortunately, the seminary mentors she thinks highly of are pretty extreme. I spoke with one when I visited my daughter while she was in seminary, and I came out a bit shaken.

Agree with waiting. Hoping and davening that she normalizes. I get that she is not going to be like me, that her life is going to be more to the right than mine (and I'm in the yeshiva, kollel world btw). But as her mother I need it to be safe. And healthy. I can daven that Hashem give her a smooth life with no bumps, so that even if she pursues and lives this life so different than mine, that she will be happy. But I know that life doesn't work that way. That there will be bumps and impediments in her path. And I want her to have a life's partner who takes achrayis, who supports her, who she can live a life with, not just for. I want her to be able to be gentle and forgive herself. To allow herself some slack. To know it's ok not to be perfect and do every chumrah under the book. That Hashem will love her if she takes a break. That her husband should love her if she can't be everything she promised she would be. That wanting to look pretty for her husband is a good thing. That wanting to look pretty for herself isn't wrong.

amother

Aconite

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 4:33 pm

I'm from a yeshivish family and I have a sister who went down a similar path to your daughter. However, she was attracted to the chassidish world from a younger age but it was cemented when she was in seminary.

Shortly after returning from seminary, she actually did marry a chassidish boy (from an atypical background, I would think that one from a typical background willing to consider her would be a huge red flag tbh). I remember her calling me the morning before her final beshow very anxious and I tried to listen to her various concerns. She then told that she was going to call her mentor from seminary for advice. I told her that while advice is valuable, at the end of the day she is the one who will be living her life, not her mentor, and she has to feel like she owns her own decision. In the end she did get engaged with the mentor's help...

She sometimes says things about her marriage or her concept of marriage that disturb me but it could be just because I'm in a different world? I don't know. Recently she told me that her reasons she thought she wanted to marry chassidish no longer apply since she had the wrong impression of certain things but clearly it was bashert for her to do so..

I wonder what would've happened if she would have been on the shidduch scene longer and had not gotten engaged within a few months of returning. Likely she would have settled down a bit and married a boy from a more similar background to her.

amother

Dustypink

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 4:52 pm

I have a relative who also got very extreme in seminary. Not the same way as your daughter, but also daven Ed three times a day, loved sefarim and learning to the extreme. Had crazy emunah - which is beautiful, but really didn’t feel realistic or coming from a healthy place. She ended up marrying someone with religious OCD and it’s actually a very scary situation right now. Please make sure it’s sincere and healthy before she dates. Give her more time, have real conversations with her, somehow find her a mentor she would respect, etc.
Good luck…

amother

Dodgerblue

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 5:06 pm

It sounds to me like she does need help. The waking up at 4am to daven Maariv sounds like OCD. If nothing else, I think you can mention the concept of religious OCD to her so that if she starts to suffer at a later point then she can recognize it immediately and go for help then.

amother

Yolk

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 5:58 pm

I was a lot like your dd. It was so hard for me coming from the kedusha of EY back to an oot community where people are so immersed in American culture they don’t even recognize it. (Not talking about you, op, just about my own experience.) Can the mentors she had in seminary connect her with ladies to learn with over the phone? Can they arrange for her to visit more insular communities for Shabbos and start connecting with people there?

amother

DarkMagenta

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 6:03 pm

I don’t know the answer.

Overall, it sounds concerning to me.

But one thing I want to point out - this IS the time in life for idealism. So it’s important not to crush that.

But mentally and emotionally healthy - that’s VERY important so first and foremost to help her with that.

You sound like a very caring mother and you don’t seem threatened by the idea of her being different than you.

amother

Foxglove

Mon, Nov 20 2023, 6:12 pm

amother OP wrote:

Unfortunately, the seminary mentors she thinks highly of are pretty extreme. I spoke with one when I visited my daughter while she was in seminary, and I came out a bit shaken.
.

This is a real problem, and im not sure what the solution is.
Because the real solution is to have her speak with a mentor who can guide her properly, except these are the people who got her into this mess in the first place...