How should I have handled my 4 yr old?

amother

Peony

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 5:51 pm

amother OP wrote:

She's actually still up again so I just had a whole conversation with her. You are right that she was not sure why I didn't want her to wake up the others. However, I just explained it to her, on her terms, how it's important that people get enough sleep, the effects of not enough sleep, why the baby should not get woken up, etc, and she TOTALLY got it all, was able to converse about it, can tell me now why I don't want her to wake up sleeping people... I disagree she cannot comprehend. I know that in future, in the moment when she's all worked up she may not be able to control herself enough to act on this information, but I am hopeful that it will help. So that's one helpful step we just took today.

Even if she understands it, it's too much of a burnden & responsibility for you as a mother to put on a 4 year old little kid.

amother

Stoneblue

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 5:55 pm

amother OP wrote:

She can understand the concept, and repeat what you told her, but she can't comprehend why it's SUCH a big deal if the baby gets woken up. She can't put herself in your shoes and imagine the sequence of events and resulting emotions on your end if one of the younger kids gets woken up. A four year old brain does not have the capacity for that.

amother

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 5:57 pm

Dolly Welsh wrote:

She really may not have been tired.

She is becoming not such a little baby. The others are still babies.

I would have let her read quietly on the couch in another room, no toys, but just reading to herself, and without you involved. That is a compromise. It is halfway to being asleep. It is being quiet and not paid attention to, but not quite asleep. "It is quiet time now," is your house rule. Fine. But a book is OK. If she really is tired, and you are not in the room, she will sleep in a minute.

A smart mind hates like poison to be told it cannot have stimulation now. It will be bored and it will tune out.

Your choices, both challenging, are to have her tuned out or, to have her asserting herself. She is going to be asserting herself more and more going forward. She is the Oldest. For a long time to come, she will be more mature than the others, and will know better about everything. And will let everybody know that.

Don't let her ride roughshod over you, not at all. But a kid only four years old hasn't got much cunning. She looks clever to you because the others are still so clueless, and by contrast she looks clever.

When a kid yells, meaning with that degree of loudness and insistence, listen.

Give her half what she wants, but not all of it. If you give her nothing, you will get a sullen and withdrawn kid. If you give her all of it, you will get a tyrant.

If I put YOU in a room and said, 'SLEEP,' you would say, 'can I at least have a magazine or something? I'm not tired.' 'No, stare at the ceiling in silence,' would not be a nice response.

I hear all this. (I really did not think she's not tired, though. She gets up very early for one, somewhere in the 6s, and doesn't usually go to sleep before 7:30, I think it was already 8:00 at that point last night. But I will keep an eye out for that in the future.)
When left alone though, she tends to start getting busy with stuff. She is super creative, and last time I left her quietly on the couch, I came back to find her in the kitchen, industriously gluing mini chocolate chips to a craft project she had made previously. So I don't trust her on the couch herself! LOL

amother

Peony

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 5:58 pm

amother Stoneblue wrote:

And it's not her problem and shouldn't be her responsibility.
If I must have absolute quiet, I do resort to bribing with a treat in the morning or allowing them to play, if that will keep them quiet.

amother

Peony

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 6:05 pm

amother OP wrote:

So how much sleep does a 4 year old need, in all your experiences? If I put a nightlight in, or let her read on the couch each night, and she's up for an extra hour every night, will she still be getting enough sleep? Should a 4 yr old be going to sleep at 8:30/9? I thought earlier...

At this age, many kids need just 10 hours of sleep.
But you don't necessarily have to put her in later. You can have her read on the couch early enough so she goes to sleep at her regular bedtime or not much later.
My 4 year old usually goes to bed at 7:30-7:40 & looks at a book for about 20 minutes before going to sleep.

Dolly Welsh

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 6:12 pm

amother OP wrote:

I disagree with your viewpoint.

Different people operate differently, sometimes extremely differently. This one may NEVER NEED as much sleep as other people, all her life. If the kid is in the kitchen curing cancer and building an airplane, when you think she should be sleeping, back off and let her be herself.

You will get real hell from this one if you get in her way. She is very, very energetic and creative, and you MUST let her be who she is.

All three of them will have different sleep needs and energy levels, because people just do.

It's not bad middos to just want to glue things when you are supposed to sleep.

Now if she starts getting a tired look, being draggy and tired, and refusing healthy sleep pattern, that's another thing. I didn't get the impression that was happening here.

amother

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 6:18 pm

amother Foxglove wrote:

What is your long term plan for her bedtime? Is there another room she could sleep in? This isn't sustainable long term imo.

I disagree that it's not sustainable. I have three kids, the baby is in his own room, the other 2 share. I grew up sharing a room all my life with at minimum one sibling, sometimes up to 3 others depending on where we were in life. I would bet the majority of the world has multiple kids sleeping in one room. It's a totally normal part of life for those who don't have mansions with enough rooms for every kid to get their own room.

amother

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 6:30 pm

Ok so here's my plan for now, I'll introduce it to her tomorrow.
- Read bedtime stories with the two of them, do the bedtime routine of Shema and Hamalach, etc.
-younger one goes in the crib, 4 yr old gets 20 min on the timer to wind down with a pre-agreed upon list of choices- reading on the couch, quiet craft such as coloring, cutting, or gluing that she cleans up when she's done, playing with dolls, anything quiet that's not making a big mess somewhere.
-when the timer rings, we give each other a kiss and a hug and she quietly goes into bed.

As long as she's following this routine, I'm happy to do it. What happens if that timer rings and she then does the whole yelling and screaming thing?

amother

Strawberry

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 6:32 pm

amother OP wrote:

Make a huge deal in the morning when she doesn’t. Say how proud you are of how well she went to bed, look really happy.

amother

Foxglove

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 6:33 pm

amother OP wrote:

Ok I didn't understand I thought all 3 were sharing. Honestly I would just get her a night light and let her stay up reading books by herself in her bed.

amother

Amber

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 6:38 pm

amother OP wrote:

Put the baby and two year old together and 4 year old her own room.

amother

Peony

Wed, Dec 20 2023, 6:38 pm

amother OP wrote:

What's not sustainable, is expecting a quiet house once the little's are asleep. There should be a sound machine in every room & the kids should be used to sleeping in regular household noise. We live in a small apartment, my baby room is right off the kitchen & we don't just all stop our day because the baby is sleeping. Sound machine practically from when they're born & they get used to sleeping through regular household noise. The sound machine blocks out much of the noise.
I have older kids & I have alot to do when the little's go to bed. I can't expect everyone to be quiet.