Camp not allowing fasting...

Crayon210

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 8:19 pm

Motek wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

I understand that, but once you give her over to the care of the camp, they're the ones making the rules, and it's not really appropriate for you to be upset that they're enforcing their rules.

I'm surprised you take this approach with this particular scenario. I wonder what is meant by this being a camp rule. Is this rule writtten somewhere or was it made up when they discovered the girl is fasting? If it's a camp rule, they had to inform the parents about it, not spring it on mother and daughter. This is not how a professional operation is run. Hanging up on a parent is another indication of their lack of professionalism. And since they were uninformed about the rule, they have every right to be upset about it.

As some posters have written, their custom is to fast before the age of 12. If the camp is going to insist on a rule that may prevent girls from following their family's customs, that is certainly something you have to let people know about in advance.

It sounded like it was a rule for everyone under 12, not just OP's daughter.

amother

Sun, Aug 10 2008, 10:25 pm

OP HERE AGAIN...
Just to clarify -
I had no problem following the camps rules - I told her she should just eat, but as I didnt know about this until Friday, and my daughter was distraught about it, I would not tell her she HAD to eat. I told her she shouldnt make a biggie out of it, and just not eat, but she said that they were watching her to make sure she would eat.
If I knew about this ahead of time (and believe me, I read EVERY WORD that they sent home, a few times, bc I was so excited about her going to camp) I would have told her not to fast at all. But how could I be the bad one when she is crying hysterically over the phone, when she was told by someone else in camp that she COULD FAST TILL CHATZOT...
I spoke quietly and calmly on the phone, and even tried to call back to make nice....

amother

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 12:22 am

amother wrote:

Not knowing beforehand seems to have been the biggest problem. But at the same time, in the summer heat, the camp doesn't need dehydrated girls and the mess of bringing them to the hospital etc. because of the fast. I remember more than one case of campers in that exact situation when I was in camp. So the staff is probably looking at it as a health/liability issue. If they had explained that clearly in advance, you could have done the same with your daughter. Hanging up on you is wrong of course, but at this point you have to be able to have a reasonable conversation with the people who are taking care of your child.

BTW, personally, I don't like the idea of kids fasting before they need to. I don't think "practice" helps when the next fast is months away, and I think kids need to eat and especially to drink, and even more so in the summer. Maybe this is becasue I am not a great faster myself. And I have never heard a real source for the minhag of the "practice fasting".

I think in the end, this is not worth making a huge deal out of, just explain to your daughter the truth- while you have no problem with her fasting, the camp is worried about campers getting dehydrated. And try to have a conversation with the director, and explain that you were caught off guard, and did not understand the rule, but now realize their reasoning and have had a conversation with your daughter about it. Getting over it and smoothing it over this way will help your daughter to not have negative feeling towards the camp and vice versa.

anon, because I don't want to be attacked because of my different opinion about the premature fasting...

Crayon210

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 2:04 am

It's not that it's safer, it's that if CHV a 12 year old got sick from fasting, they could more easily explain that it was because of Jewish law that the girl was fasting to begin with, which it's assumed that the parent agrees with by sending their daughter to a religious camp.

A child under 12 is not bound to fast by halacha, and without a very explicit statement freeing the camp from any liability, it would be more difficult for a camp to explain why a 10 year old (or even an 11 3/4 year old) dehydrated/passed out/etc. CHV.

shalhevet

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 2:08 am

GAMZu wrote:

Quote:

So the staff is probably looking at it as a health/liability issue

I've mentioned this twice in this thread already- they are allowing hundreds of girls 12 and up fast. How is it safer for them to fast and not this girl who is almost 12? What's the big difference? Why is 12 a magic age? It's a halachik age, but it doesn't make fasting easier or safer for the kid. Confused

Just as a FYI, and not much to do with this particular problem, halacha considers that there is a physical difference. That is part of the holiness and power the Sanhedrin have in declaring when there will be a leap year, because it changes the physical reality.

Our rav does not allow full practice fasts before actual bar/ bas mitzva (I know many people have the 3 fast custom), and does not allow to fast at all before the age of 9. We have a dd born on 11th Teves, and another 11th Tishrei, and it makes no difference if it's one day - my dd who will be 9 iy"H the day after YK this year, will not be allowed to even fast for a few hours, and the day before her bas mitzva will not be allowed to fast the whole day.

About the camp - I think it's pretty ridiculous if parents give their permission, and it's the parents' responsibility. They should have required the parents' written permission before the start of the camp.

freidasima

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 2:47 am

First, let's look at din before emotion.
I was taught that 9 Av being both derabanan and a fast that we hope will be abolished should not be pushed before age mitzvos. Meaning no big deal for an 11 and eleven months old to eat, it's an emotional thing, sure, but not even chinuch as we shouldn't push to fast on that day. YK as a practice at age 11 is a different story for a girl or 12 for a boy, that is chinuch, If a family keeps the 3 fast system that's fine, but if someone is giving zurris vis a vis 9 Be'av, it's not worth it.

Now for the emotional. Your dd was right, although we live in a world that litigates to death and thus I am sure they would want a signed note for liability.

Now for tachlis. You should teach her that in such situations this is not a medieval torture chamber and they won't hold her mouth open and pour water down. Just sya "yes yes" and fake it. In other words as one poster wrote, if you just keep your mouth shut you can get away with it...not reallly good "chinuch" for "yosher" but very practical to know...

Tamiri

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 3:13 am

There have been so many articles about parents sending children to camp/school/whatever then not enforcing the rules of the institution. You can't have it both ways: if she's out of your jurisdiction, she has to follow the rules. And I don't agree with Friedas about tricking them. The camp is liable for the safety of the little girl's body and soul during the duration of her stay with them. If there is anything about the camp which does not meet with the approval of campers and parents, they are welcome to take the child out. The parents could have picked her up for the fast. I know parents do that when the child needs to attend a simcha or something.
Can you imagine what it's like if there are hundreds of parents calling to ask that an allowance be made for their child? And, you know how parents are these days.... The staff can get very exasperated, to put it mildly.
I do think that part of the "camp rules" page should note that there is no fasting allowed, and then either have the parents sign a waiver in advance or have the option of picking their children up for the fast.

sarahd

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 4:27 am

GAMZu wrote:

Also, if they are doing it for "safety" - how does turning 12 suddenly make it safe to fast? It's a halachic age and not a medical one.

According to halacha it's unsafe for under bar/bas mitzva age children to fast. The halacha is that a child whose birthday is 10 Av may not fast on 9 Av. Do you think the camp should ignore halacha?

OTOH, this child only wanted to fast till chatzos, which is permitted lehalacha. I can't quite understand why the director was so adamant about refusing permission - unless she had already refused permission for others to fast?

TzenaRena

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 5:28 am

sarahd wrote:

GAMZu wrote:

Also, if they are doing it for "safety" - how does turning 12 suddenly make it safe to fast? It's a halachic age and not a medical one.

The halacha concerns children under nine. After nine they are allowed to fast.

sarahd

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 6:16 am

TzenaRena wrote:

sarahd wrote:

GAMZu wrote:

Also, if they are doing it for "safety" - how does turning 12 suddenly make it safe to fast? It's a halachic age and not a medical one.

The halacha concerns children under nine. After nine they are allowed to fast.

Not a full day.

amother

Mon, Aug 11 2008, 6:59 pm

UPDATE FROM OP
Camp director (who is in the boys camp) called me back today - I had left a message for him yesterday in the camp office.
I apologized, explained to him that I respect the rules of the camp, but it would be helpful to know them ahead of time, so I dont have to deal with my daughter crying hysterically on the phone when I am helpless.

I told him that this all would have been avoided if I had known about this ahead of time - it would not have even been an issue because I would have told my daughter up front that she will not be fasting - not even till chatzot. I also reminded him that there was no mention of this whatsoever in any of the paperwork that came home from the camp, that this wasnt one of these obvious if she misbehaves, steals, whatever rules. Not something someone would know about. He actually agreed and said that it is something he will keep in mind for next years information packet.
At least some good came out of it.

freidasima

Tue, Aug 12 2008, 6:38 am

I guess I am very Israeli.
Here, rules are made to be broken.
In other words, there are usually tons and tons of crazy rules everywhere. At work, by the government, by youth movements, by schools etc. and it's a national pasttime to hear a rule and your mind is already working out how to circumvent it.

That, bTw is because most of the rules are made by people who say "well people are just going to break them anyhow so let's add on as much as we can, then at least they will do the minimum"

Kind of like syagim but while syagim of chazal are to be taken very seriously, Israeli rules are not.
Hence if my kid would have been faced with something like that, there would have been a general mutiny of all the girls who refused to eat, they would have banded together and done it on their own, not contacting parents, taking the initiative and just refusing, using a lot of rhetoric when necessary and everything up to violence, not including that in such a case.

Yes we are raising a country of yiddishe banditim here. But it's the only way to survive, and survive we will!