Taking away someone's pesach cleaning help - spin off

amother

Hyacinth

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 7:26 pm

With all due respect I don’t think it’s my place to worry about my cleaning ladies clients. And schedules If it’s a friend or someone I know using her I would speak it with her. But if I don’t know anyone else she goes to it’s really not my problem. If I ask for more hours and she says yes than it’s on her. I’m not offering to pay more. Yes yes no no I understand either way but I’m still going to ask

amother

Catmint

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 7:31 pm

amother Pink wrote:

It’s not, I think it’s the exact same. There is an employee, who is being recruited. Will it hurt the current employer temporarily to find a new employee? Sure. But that doesn’t mean the future employer can’t make an offer

I get that it can be very frustrating and a big hassle especially before a YT, but that doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It’s a little disturbing that so many people treat their cleaning lady like property rather than an employee

At the end of the day, if your cleaning lady is happy with her work environment and compensation, she isn’t going to leave that because someone offered her some extra hours or a little more for a couple weeks

So if you don’t want to lose your employee, treat them well and pay them well. Like any other business that has employees

You have no idea how well I treat cleaning ladies. My friends do too. Yours is a common excuse for people who take away your help and leave you without help before Pesach. It’s not an excuse. The cleaning lady isn’t my property and takes full advantage of the fact she’s treated very well. They leave in a second if someone offers them more. Then they get dumped the day after chag. Twice I actually had them call me begging to have their job back. I declined. I hope you won’t tell me I was mistreating them for not taking them back.

amother

Catmint

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 7:38 pm

amother Celeste wrote:

Imagine a school that approaches a teacher in a different school 6 weeks before state exams and offers her double the salary.
Teacher switches.
And then a week after the exams, the school cuts the teacher's hours down to 3 hours a day because they don't need her.
Is that ethical?

There's also halachos of hurting someone. Like someone mentioned in the original thread, Rabbanim have weighed in.
But if I have a playgroup, and accept 8 kids for $500 apiece, can someone else offer me $800 for their child so I just kick out one of the other kids?
What if we didn't have a written contract, just a verbal agreement? Then can I kick out a child midyear because someone else is offering to pay more?

You definitely can IF you subscribe to the belief posted on the previous thread that’s it’s every woman for herself. Followers of that idea would’ve kicked out the child without a backward glance.

amother

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 8:14 pm

patzer wrote:

That's a good analogy.
I work in a school. Suppose one day another school approaches me and offers me more money or better working conditions, and I decide to accept the offer. I would feel obligated to give my current employer a reasonable amount of notice. Quitting suddenly would put them in a difficult position, and I would surely expect them to be furious with me (and rightly so)!
I would also be completely honest about why I was leaving (no stories about an imaginary relative's illness). And finally, I wouldn't expect to be able to demand my old job back when my new job is cutting hours.
There's a right way to do things, and a wrong way.

All good points but all of those things reflect how the TEACHER should conduct herself and what she should expect, not the school that lured her away. Translated to the housekeeping analogy, they reflect how the HOUSEKEEPER should conduct herself, not the employer who (knowingly or unknowingly) lured her away.

amother

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 8:24 pm

B'Syata D'Shmya wrote:

Would you poach your daughters cleaning help?

You are trying to justify something you know is wrong.
You cant fix a problem by hurting someone else

Im not sure the mashal (comparison) to teaching is appropriate, as a teaching job is a permanent job. Your poaching is seasonal and temporary. When Pesach is over, you are more than happy to resume pre-Pesach schedule and not pay extra or request for more hours or hire someone elses cleaning help with more money.
Come on! Be a Mentch!

WHOA! Hold on now. I have never poached anyone's cleaning help.
In the past I have shared housekeepers with relatives, friends and neighbors. I have never tried to lure anyone over here to give me extra hours at my relative's/friend's/ neighbor's expense. Always I asked if they could spare any days/ hours if I was really in a bind. And if they said no, that was the end.

I am just trying to understand the outrage of women saying their help is being stollen for Pesach. I believe it is happening. And if it's being done knowingly, it isn't nice. But I do think someone should be able to say, "Hey, Maria, do you think you could work some extra hours for me over the next month?" and let it be up to Maria where she wants to work. It's very different from, "Hey, Maria, I know you usually work at Zeldie's house on Tuesdays and Thursdays, but if you work here instead I'll give you a $5/hr raise."

In summary, if I need more help I should be able to ask for it unless I specifically know it's taking away from someone I share the housekeeper with. But I don't think I should first have to research who else does Maria work for all week and get their permission for me to have more hours.

Does that make sense?

amother

Oxfordblue

Thu, Mar 14 2024, 9:11 pm

amother Pink wrote:

This. Some people have very paternalistic views on their cleaning ladies. They are people with wants and needs not just mindless helpers who exist to serve Jewish woman who don’t want to clean. The posts on these threads are very off putting.

giftedmom

Fri, Mar 15 2024, 12:55 am

amother Oxfordblue wrote:

Their wants and needs are money money money. They are mostly illegal immigrants working for cash. And no they have no compunctions about leaving people high and dry for another few dollars. That’s just the reality.

amother

Yellow

Fri, Mar 15 2024, 1:05 am

giftedmom wrote:

Many of them are working as hard as they can and sending money to their children who are still in another country. Their values are THEIR family, not yours, and it's not surprising. I might do the same in their situation, if I could save my family suffering, I'd drop any ideas of employer loyalty and do what's best for my kids.

Plonis bas Plonis

Fri, Mar 15 2024, 1:32 am

amother Linen wrote:

Yes.

Well so do I.
My last cleaning lady would lock herself in the bathroom and be on her phone most of the time.
The one before would rarely show up
I could go on and on.
I’m sure good ethical cleaning ladies are out there, it’s just that I have yet to be zoche to one such.

farm

Fri, Mar 15 2024, 2:50 am

amother Yellow wrote:

Exactly! That’s why it’s on the poacher and not the cleaning lady. Someone who approaches someone else’s regular scheduled hired help and offers more money knows good and well the hired help essentially has no bechira in this realm and is looking to maximize earnings quickly. They are clearly and obviously putting the current employer in a tough situation by poaching!

amother

DarkCyan

Fri, Mar 15 2024, 3:31 am

amother Powderblue wrote:

I hope a teacher will first communicate with her place of employment why she isn't happy and ask for things to be better before deciding to leave them. I hope she lets her first place of employment know that she's leaving and doesn't just stand them up or quit with just a phone call or text or some false excuse.

Most teachers are educated enough to make informed decisions. Most hired help are not. They'll do anything for more money or more hours. Is it my fault that I can't offer more of either of those?

Teachers are a necessity to a school. I should hope us women can get to pesach without taking away someone else's help. I know you might feel the extra hour is a must but why at the expense of leaving someone else high and dry?

A teacher is replaceable in the long run. A cleaning woman is usually not replaceable before pesach.

And you would give her a raise if she asked for one? Rather than throwing her out and taking someone cheaper? Because that's the way they are treated in general. So good for them that there is at least one season where they can call the shots.

amother

Silver

Fri, Mar 15 2024, 11:55 am

amother OP wrote:

That said, why is this situation more unique than any other? While I think poaching someone from a friend or neighbor is downright nasty, what is so wrong with making an offer to an employee and having them accept if it's better for them? Is it really so different from the situations above?

You're right about poaching from a neighbor being nasty.

A neighbor and I used to share the services of a cleaning lady, dividing up the hours between us. When Pesach was approaching, I called the neighbor and asked when would be a good time for us to work out a schedule with the cleaning lady so that we could both get our Pesach cleaning done. She answered back that I was "too late" because she already made a schedule with the cleaning lady, and she would be getting all the cleaning lady's hours for those weeks leading up to Pesach, leaving me with none. I told her that as we have always shared this service, we should be fair about it. I'll never forget her reply. She answered back, "Fair has nothing to do with it. I booked the cleaning lady and you're too late."

I am so thankful to be a person who would never even think of doing to my neighbor what she did to me that year.

amother

Turquoise

Fri, Mar 15 2024, 12:01 pm

amother Silver wrote:

wow. what a nasty b-tch

amother

Bellflower

Fri, Mar 15 2024, 12:14 pm

My dh was literally poached from one employer to another when he first began working.

He was excelling at his job and someone he was doing business with offered him to come work for him for better position and pay.

Guess what, (after much thought) he gave notice and left, taking all his experience and knowledge in the field with him.

His boss was p-ssed. Too bad, that’s life. My dh doesn’t exist to help his boss run a business.

HOW IS THIS ANY DIFFERENT?

amother

Mint

Fri, Mar 15 2024, 12:39 pm

My husband is a veteran teacher and rebbe. He was working as an english teacher in a high school and most people knew how much he hated that job, it was in a certain mesivta and it was the worst job he'd ever had.

A secular principal of another yeshiva, where our boys to go school actually, approached him 2 weeks into the school year and offered him a job there for a few hours in the after noon every day. Since it was 2 weeks into the year, there was a massive sign on bonus. The principal had no idea my husband had another job those hours.

So my husband went to his boss and said, you know I'm miserable here, and I was offered another job at XYZ school, can I take it? And the boss (the secular principal at the current mesivta) called the one who made the offer. They agreed to go to the local head of the vaad ha'chinuch, who said the schools all have a no-poaching gentleman's agreement that says once the year starts, you can't approach teachers in other schools. The pask was that if the current boss would let him go, he can take the other job.

Now again, the one who approached my husband did NOT know he had a job those evening hours.

So knowing he was so miserable, the current boss agreed that if they could replace my husband with someone on his level of skill or better, he could take the job. But they never advertised the position and when he sent people for the job they did not get an interview.

So my husband stayed there for the year, did his best, and left. He is now BH working for a few years in the other place, as a job was promised to him at that point. BH he is much happier.

amother

Coral

Fri, Mar 15 2024, 1:27 pm

amother Bellflower wrote:

1. Your DH was offered a full-time job. These cleaning ladies are being offered seasonal work, and they don't always know it. Whoever poaches a cleaning lady without telling her it's seasonal is evil.

2. Imagine that your DH quit his job and started his new high-paying job. His second day, he realized that despite the great pay, it was a horrible work environment with toxic co-workers. Do you think his previous boss would take him back if he wanted to leave?

3. Your DH gave notice. These cleaning ladies do not.