Haman on a Tree - Kids projects

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:04 pm

csstb wrote:

We have a moral tradition of not teaching our children to rejoice in other’s pain. It is grounded in Torah. Hence, the sources. Sure, an adult can have more nuance but this was not a post about adults. This was a post about whether young children should make 3-D representations of dead Haman on a tree. I did not teach my children to celebrate that image. I have never seen them celebrating that image, and I imagine one in particular would be extremely uncomfortable with that. They seem to celebrate Purim with true simcha and mitzvos nonetheless. And I imagine that’s what Hashem wants from them.

Okay, so I don't think I misinterpreted your posts at all. Thanks for clarifying!

csstb

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:05 pm

WonderIma wrote:

They are not relevant, because you are misinterpreting them, as was pointed out above. When your position doesn't change despite finding out the the support for your position is inaccurate, that is an indication that it was never about the sources as much as it is about your feelings. Maybe it's worth considering where the source of those feelings are from and if they are consistent with our mesorah.

So the fact that we, people, do not say Hallel Shalem on the last day of Pesach is not part of your mesorah? Because Halacha is a pretty darn important part of my mesorah.

csstb

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:06 pm

amother Aquamarine wrote:

Okay, so I don't think I misinterpreted your posts at all. Thanks for clarifying!

I hope we’re in agreement then!

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:07 pm

csstb wrote:

I hope we’re in agreement then!

Nope, sorry. I don't have a problem with my children being happy that Haman is gone and that he was hanged on a tree. Part of my celebration on Purim is that Hashem wiped out Amalek. That's why we have graggers and boo when we hear his name. That's the mesorah I know.

sushilover

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:10 pm

amother NeonYellow wrote:

I don't love the focus on makos either.

But not because of the death and pain of the Egyptians. But because they're taken out of context. The Torah focuses on they were warned to do teshuvah, they were warned to let the Yidden go, and they didn't listen.

The Medrash gives the details, but with an explanation for why each was an appropriate punishment that taught them a lesson.

Making it all about frogs is missing the point.

You can say the same about almost any project.

For example, "Rochel Imeinu's death has such deep meaning in the parsha and medresh. The kids just come home with a picture of her burial place. How gruesome and/or out of context. Making it all about her kever is missing the point."

We simplify things for kids because that is how they learn.

The hanging of the evil Haman is such an important symbolic image. I have no problem with children recreating that image.

amother

DarkPurple

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:12 pm

amother Aquamarine wrote:

I'm not following the connection here... Why wouldn't we if it's minhag? People don't call PC for nothing. They use it when someone tries to avoid certain aspects of Torah because it doesn't fit into today's standard of correctness.

There is nothing in the Torah that says we make depictions of Haman hanging for fun.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:15 pm

amother DarkPurple wrote:

There is nothing in the Torah that says we make depictions of Haman hanging for fun.

The Torah doesn't say to have coloring pages or any arts and crafts at all. What's your point? How does this comment have any relevance to the one you are replying to?

csstb

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:17 pm

sushilover wrote:

I would take young kids to kever Rochel in a heartbeat! I would not take young children to watch Adolf Eichmann being hanged. Don’t pretend they’re the same. Even if you would make a different choice and take your kids to a hanging, I can’t imagine you fail to see the difference.

amother

DarkPurple

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:18 pm

amother Aquamarine wrote:

The Torah doesn't say to have coloring pages or any arts and crafts at all. What's your point? How does this comment have any relevance to the one you are replying to?

What's your point, then? If someone objects to a specific craft, then how does is that leftist values making them anti-Torah?

(It's also not even a leftist value. Google "leopards ate my face." There is nothing leftists love more than rejoicing at the downfall of their enemies. Perhaps schadenfreude itself is a leftist value.)

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:22 pm

amother DarkPurple wrote:

You can reread my post to understand my point. It's pretty clear to me.

The question is why do they object? If it's because it's not nice to Amalek to make such a craft, then yes, that's a liberal mentality of let's not say anything that isn't friendly/kind about others.

If they object because their child is suffering from nightmares, then nothing about that is liberal mentality. Totally understandable.

amother

DarkPurple

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:26 pm

amother Aquamarine wrote:

That's a false dichotomy. Also, how is that a liberal mentality??? Not being unkind is a basic human value. Applying it to Haman would be absurd, but that's not what people are doing here. The concept of not rejoicing at the downfall of our enemies has absolutely nothing to do with being nice to them. It's a Jewish value that doesn't apply in every situation, but it's based on a spiritual concept, not a political one.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:27 pm

amother DarkPurple wrote:

So what are they doing here?

We've mentioned many many times that the concept of not rejoicing at out enemies downfall is only relevant to Yidden. It has no place in this conversation. I do not understand your argument at all.

amother

DarkPurple

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:28 pm

amother Aquamarine wrote:

So what are they doing here?

Calling it distasteful to celebrate Haman's hanging with depictions of it. That's not the same thing as being nice.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:29 pm

amother DarkPurple wrote:

Calling it distasteful to celebrate Haman's hanging with depictions of it. That's not the same thing as being nice.

I've said it quite a few times that depictions of fact isn't celebration and even if it was, there is no problem with celebrating it.

amother

DarkPurple

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:30 pm

amother Aquamarine wrote:

I've said it quite a few times that depictions of fact isn't celebration and even if it was, there is no problem with celebrating it.

Okay, so you disagree. That doesn't make it "woke."

amother

DarkPurple

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:34 pm

amother Aquamarine wrote:

Why is it distasteful to you?

To me personally? I've already explained. For the same reason making a "Caganer" figure of Pharaoh would be distasteful. Certain things are disgusting and shouldn't be depicted for that reason.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 6:37 pm

amother DarkPurple wrote:

To me personally? I've already explained. For the same reason making a "Caganer" figure of Pharaoh would be distasteful. Certain things are disgusting and shouldn't be depicted for that reason.

So just because you think blood and gore is gross? Okay, that's not woke.

(The crafts I have seen are actually very cute and not gory at all. No kids I know have ever been scared or grossed out by it)

That's not what others are taking issue with about this craft and yes, their reasoning comes across as liberalist. I'm not the only one who thinks so. Check out giftedmom's post on the first page and see how many likes it has.

sushilover

Thu, Mar 21 2024, 7:02 pm

csstb wrote:

I wouldn't take my kids to Eichman's hanging, but if we had lived in Persia at the time, I would've taken them to see Haman on the gallows.

I can't imagine you fail to see the difference.