Would you consider such a person frum?

Seraph

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 10:58 am

shayna82 wrote:

greenfire wrote:

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

this whole topic is making me sad.

why, that we're not all singing kumbaya together and eating everyone's food?
sometimes doing the right thing is a little more important than making sure no ones feelings get hurt.

you are so wrong - one can be a complete mentsch whilst still keeping whatever chumras they want ... people's feelings are important ... derech eretz kodma l'torah ...

totaly agree with you. peoples feeling are important, treating others with respect is more important. if this is such a huge deal, I think you should have just asked a rav, instead of bringing such a topic to the board. its not like your gonna make a decision based on what we say, cuz who are we after all? I wear a tichel most of the time, you cant eat by me.

I dont understand the point you're trying to make. I only wear tichels... I dont even own a sheitel...

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 11:00 am

shayna82 wrote:

greenfire wrote:

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

this whole topic is making me sad.

why, that we're not all singing kumbaya together and eating everyone's food?
sometimes doing the right thing is a little more important than making sure no ones feelings get hurt.

you are so wrong - one can be a complete mentsch whilst still keeping whatever chumras they want ... people's feelings are important ... derech eretz kodma l'torah ...

Ditto that.

My ex's father wouldn't eat in my home because we didn't observe Chalav Yisroel or Pas Yisroel and we ate Empire poultry and once upon a million years ago, there was a problem with Empire. Rather than either ask me to buy certain brands or heaven forbid expect me to do so on my own, he simply refused to eat in my home.

When many of my friends were getting married, I would often make them Sheva Brachot. A couple of them were vegetarians so I'd make a dairy Seudah. All the dairy would automatically be Chalav Yisroel and I made sure to announce it at the beginning of the meal lest anyone assume it wasn't and not eat. Even if no one ate Chalav Yisroel, at the off chance one person did, they could enjoy the meal.

Seraph

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 11:01 am

Clarissa wrote:

Seraph wrote:

Someone who is a baalas teshuva gets their past erased... As far as what I currently know about you, if you would cook with the hechsherim I keep when I'm at your place, I would probably eat your food. (Unless you're telling me that you and your husband spouse swap with another couple.)

Exactly. When I have people over who have certain restrictions, I will try to make sure that everything I serve has a hechsher that would be at their standards, so they're not in a position of unknowingly eating something they ordinarily would avoid, just for the sake of politeness. If they're so restrictive that I can't cook food that would be acceptable, I accept that with no hard feelings. For instance, if somebody won't eat my food because of me cooking (in my pots and pans) food they wouldn't eat, then there's nothing I can do to make my home acceptable. So we go out, or we don't eat together. It doesn't have to be negative. For instance, before I married my husband and starting keeping kosher for Pesach, my friend A. used to come over anyway, and she'd bring a grapefruit in her bag. No friendships need to be affected by religious differences.

By the way, I'm not a BT, so my past has not been erased. If that makes my food unacceptable to someone, that's okay. They can pick up a cup of coffee outside and still sit in my living room. I'll even let them bring in cookies for both of us!

I know you don't define yourself as a BT, but you still are. Anyone who no longer does what aveira they did in the past is called a BT, at least in terms of past getting erased.

Shayna and greenfire, while being a mentch and ve'ahavta lereacha kamocha are important, when it comes down to a) keep kashrus and offend someone b) eat something not kosher as to not offend someone, I'd go with choice A. Of course, if you can choose choice c)keep kashrus and dont offend anyone, thats even better, but sometimes its not possible.

shayna82

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 11:02 am

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

greenfire wrote:

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

this whole topic is making me sad.

why, that we're not all singing kumbaya together and eating everyone's food?
sometimes doing the right thing is a little more important than making sure no ones feelings get hurt.

you are so wrong - one can be a complete mentsch whilst still keeping whatever chumras they want ... people's feelings are important ... derech eretz kodma l'torah ...

I dont understand the point you're trying to make. I only wear tichels... I dont even own a sheitel...

well then how would you feel is say, on an other women board someone said- "theres someone I know, she dosnt wear a sheitel, she just sent over food for me since I had a baby, I dont feel she is frum enough, does her not wearing a tichel deem her food unkosher?"

Mimisinger

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 11:03 am

Seraph wrote:

ChossidMom wrote:

Isn't this a question for a rav?

It would be, however, I'm asking this theoretically, if you'd consider such a person frum.

Here is the first issue - Seraph is asking a theoretical question. And, when asking something theoretically, you don't know all the side issues. Also whatever happened to the idea of tinok shenishba? Plenty of people grew up with kashrut who didn't know laws of nidda, negiah, etc.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 11:04 am

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

this whole topic is making me sad.

why, that we're not all singing kumbaya together and eating everyone's food?
sometimes doing the right thing is a little more important than making sure no ones feelings get hurt.

seraph, that is not true at all. first of all, it is known that to embarrass someone is just as bad as killing them.

I want to give you an example of this, how what you wrote is not the case. we have chiloni relatives here in israel. they know nothing about kashrut. one time we went over there and my mother told them that we can not eat in their house because they dont keep the halachot like we do and they were a bit put off. fair enough. we understood that they would be, but my mother told them that they would bring plastic wear and stuff from a bakery nearby and all was ok. they thought that we could never eat in their home, but it was that we could not eat from their dishes, etc. it helps to be a mentch and in our case, my mother explained the reasonings behind what she said and all was ok. being a mentsch is a big deal in life. it gets one much farther than being nasty or doing the absolutely correct thing all of the time.

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 11:05 am

Mimisinger wrote:

Seraph wrote:

ChossidMom wrote:

Isn't this a question for a rav?

It would be, however, I'm asking this theoretically, if you'd consider such a person frum.

She also stated that she'll be providing the ingredients and the pots so I don't see what the issue is.

Seraph

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 11:08 am

YESHASettler wrote:

Seraph wrote:

However, if she's lax about kashrus and other halachos, why should I not be concerned when eating food she prepares?

You DID say (at least in the beginning) that you'd be providing the ingredients and the pots. So what's the problem?

If, theoretically, she's considered to be dino k'akum, and she cooks in my pots and with my badatz ingredients, the food would still not be ok as merely the act of an akum cooking something makes it bishul akum and not kosher. That is, unless I'd take part in the cooking process.

The issue with people using their own pots/pans/plates and cooking food with your hechsher is that if their cooking is considered to be treif bec of bishul akum, then their pots are considered treif, and any food cooked in their pots is considered treif. (At least according to my rav, as I've JUST had this issue with someone who's food I'm not allowed to eat, and the rav made it clear that it didnt matter what ingredients were in it, if it was in HER pot, its not considered kosher.)

Clarissa

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 11:11 am

Seraph wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

By the way, I'm not a BT, so my past has not been erased. If that makes my food unacceptable to someone, that's okay. They can pick up a cup of coffee outside and still sit in my living room. I'll even let them bring in cookies for both of us!

I know you don't define yourself as a BT, but you still are. Anyone who no longer does what aveira they did in the past is called a BT, at least in terms of past getting erased.

Nope, still not a BT. My past was not erased. The reason I stopped having relations without marriage is because I got married.

Last edited by Clarissa on Mon, Oct 27 2008, 11:59 am; edited 1 time in total

Seraph

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 11:12 am

Mimisinger wrote:

There's no issue, there's no person - it's all theoretical, so instead of everyone saying to ask her LOR - IT"S NOT A REAL ISSUE!

Oh, and instead of starting theoretical threads, why not teach your husband hilchos kashrut????

You want me to start a thread in the shalom bayis section? I've tried to teach him, but he doesnt think its relevant to him, he'd rather learn things that give him a spiritual boost. So when issues come up, I show him in the sefer and he begrudgingly says "ok, I guess that is the halacha..."

shayna82

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 11:14 am

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

and the worst thing you can do to non frum relatives is make yourself look better than them. it IS about peoples feelings. what is being jewish all about then, if people are constantly looking down on others?

so better eat their pork than embarass them and tell then pork isnt kosher?

I would never say- sorry, nope- cant eat in your house. I have non kosher grandparents, (no pork, but just not kosher- not kosher cheese...) and every time we are there we have our own pots and stuff, and they WANT us to eat by them, so if this is what makes us comfortable, and we can all sit at the table together, then thats what matters. and there are no hard feelings, because we handled it like mentches. with no holier than though attitude, and no fighting and no rolling eyes.

peoples feelings do matter.

Seraph

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 11:15 am

shayna82 wrote:

no I actually think its is a real person she is talking about. she noted that she is asking for a specific reason...

Ok, lets put it this way.
This is a very real person I'm talking about. Its a non issue because she lives in the house with someone who my rav said is considered not trustworthy kashruswise, so I AM NOT ALLOWED to eat in her house what was in her pots, because she uses pots my rav considers treif.
However, I'm curious in theory what someone else would do.

About what you consider frum, and all.
My husband considers only chareidi people "frum" as he thinks frum means chareidi (meaning he still considers other people religious, but not with the title "frum"), but my definition of frum is a little more broad, including all people shomrei mitzvos. so I wasnt sure if describing this person I'd say "she's a frum girl", because is she frum? can someone not ashamed about doing aveiros be considered frum?

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 11:16 am

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

so better eat their pork than embarass them and tell then pork isnt kosher?

You know there ARE actual middle grounds here... it's not an all or nothing situation. It just depends on how you present your POV.

BeershevaBubby

Mon, Oct 27 2008, 11:17 am

Seraph wrote:

shayna82 wrote:

no I actually think its is a real person she is talking about. she noted that she is asking for a specific reason...

So invite her over to your house instead. Problem solved.